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Kabbalah
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On Aug 31, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:

- that is just right-wing knee-jerk bigotry.


And you spout left-wing nonsense!
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Dannydoyle
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How do you explain explain alcohol abuse?

Sorry Tony I spent way more time IN the system meeting people. Don't give me your theories. They Are as meaningless as opinions that are not tried out.

I agree social issues are the main problem. But are you saying criminal gangs will just go get legal jobs? How does this work exactly?
Danny Doyle
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landmark
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On Aug 30, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It's certainly not a given that spending more money creates better schools.

And contrariwise.
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On Aug 31, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
I'm not sure whether a cure for cancer or a pill to prevent stupidity would save more lives.


that's begging questions of deciding which lives deserve a pill and who says who is stupid


Hey, who are you to deny civil rights to tumors and judge a person the unintended consequences of their actions can be seen in historical perspective? Smile
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TonyB2009
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On Sep 1, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
But are you saying criminal gangs will just go get legal jobs? How does this work exactly?

That was not my argument. I said that social conditions create criminals. Changing the social conditions will change the numbers who turn to a life of crime.

As for those already committed career criminals, we have lost that one. But criminals tend to get less violent and less anti-social as they age. There are no 70 year old muggers.

A sensible society would try to eradicate the causes of crime, and the crime figures will eventually fall. A knee-jerk society just cracks down on the criminals, but does nothing about the underlying causes.

The USA has problems like nine year olds killing instructors with Uzis, and Sandy Hook massacres every year, because you do not have the interest or the balls to tackle the underlying problem, your gun culture.
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You keep making broad generalizations that you never back up.

Let me guess we just have to try your way to see if it works right? Nonsense.

Everyone will all just get along if we just let them have drugs right? Don't be so hard on criminals because that is a knee jerk reaction. The USA is the only place that has problems and the paradise of Ireland is pure as the wind driven snow. Must be just grand this utopia you speak of.

Any proof to back shy of it up or do I have to do all the research?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 1, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
You keep making broad generalizations that you never back up.

Let me guess we just have to try your way to see if it works right? Nonsense.

Everyone will all just get along if we just let them have drugs right? Don't be so hard on criminals because that is a knee jerk reaction. The USA is the only place that has problems and the paradise of Ireland is pure as the wind driven snow. Must be just grand this utopia you speak of.

Any proof to back shy of it up or do I have to do all the research?


Look, Danny, it's really simple. In Ireland, where pot is illegal and there are gangs, homicides are because of gangs and illegal drugs. In the USA, where pot is illegal and there are gangs, homicides are because of a redneck gun culture.

I'm still not sure how pot being illegal creates this precondition that turns people into murderers, or how there would be a one-for-one reduction in homicides if it were legal, but I'm sure it's all quite simple.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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mastermindreader
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The fact remains that non-gang related gun deaths in the United States FAR exceed every other western nation on a per capita basis.

What are the reasons underlying that, if not culturally related?
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 1, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
The fact remains that non-gang related gun deaths in the United States FAR exceed every other western nation on a per capita basis.

What are the reasons underlying that, if not culturally related?


"Culturally related" is very broad. I'm arguing specifically against TonyB's "redneck gun culture" position.

But a couple of for instances would be:

1) An unsecured 2000-mile border wih a country that that has a vastly worse economy. How many of those western nations have that? People limit the discussion to "western nations" because the USA doesn't look so bad compared to a large number of "non-western" countries, and act as if it's a total apples to apples comparison. Give Ireland (1.2 murders per 100,000 populations) a 2,000-mile border with Mexico (21.5) and give the USA (4.7) the exact same policies and tuck us away near Western Europe and see what happens. Give our geography and demographics, it's totally inapposite to say that "western nations" are our relevant comparison group. Why don't we see how we do among countries in the Americas?

2) Gangs, drugs, and wealth, and the inherent mass profit motive behind violent crime.

When I've tried to look up "gang related" homicides, I've seen numerous disclaimers about how hard it is to get a reliable figure. But I suspect that if you deducted suicides (people who don't have guns can still kill themselves, as Robin Williams showed recently), people who were in the country illegally (which could be alleviated if we as a country actually cared about a secure border), gang homicides, shootings of people in the process of committing crimes, (and all other justified shootings), both the number of gun deaths and the number of intentional homicides would be more in line with some of the countries that we're typically (and inappropriately) compared to.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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The good, the bad and the ugly American. Hollywood, that's where you get it from.
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On Sep 1, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

People limit the discussion to "western nations" because the USA doesn't look so bad compared to a large number of "non-western" countries, and act as if it's a total apples to apples comparison.

I really do not think the discussion is limited (if indeed it is) to western nations for the reason you suggest.
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Okay- let's extend that to "civilized" nations. (Or first world nations.)

Which other nation has a culture that promotes shooting automatic weapons as a family activity suitable for children?
Dannydoyle
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Also I have taken no position on legalization of pot. Just don't buy the other rationalizations that are completely unfounded.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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On Sep 1, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Okay- let's extend that to "civilized" nations. (Or first world nations.)

Which other nation has a culture that promotes shooting automatic weapons as a family activity suitable for children?


Obviously, not near enough!
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Quote:
On Aug 31, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
You have no grasp of how "organized crime" was run during American prohibition. That is obvious.

Also people are criminals because they are. If you take away the income from the drugs, they move to kidnapping. They will move to other drugs. Do you REALLY think that criminals will just go get regular jobs? Are you serious?

Of course you have no proof. Of course it is just an opinion. Thank you for pointing that out.

Danny, you are great at blowing hot air. I know quite a bit about the history of organised crime in the USA, and a huge amount about the history of organised crime in Ireland. And criminals are not criminals because they are - that is just right-wing knee-jerk bigotry. Social conditions create criminals. Changing the social conditions - and that includes legislation on prostitution and soft drugs - changes the number of criminals in a society.

If you can't see that, I am not going to do the work for you. But no amount of bluster on your part changes it.


I believe you have a point. Just give everyone that is not that well off $250,000 so they do not have to work and find a job and they will stop doing illegal things...that is until their money runs out. Then you have to give them another $250,000 or they have to find a real job or...go to that life of crime because it sure beats real a real job.
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acesover
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On Sep 1, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Okay- let's extend that to "civilized" nations. (Or first world nations.)

Which other nation has a culture that promotes shooting automatic weapons as a family activity suitable for children?


Aren't you making a generalization that the Unites States makes shooting automatic weapons a family activity because of this incident? Do they make a family activity of driving race cars a family activity? What about the teen who was going to fly around the globe solo wat that a family thing also? What about someone who gets killed on a bicycle while cycling with their family, does that make biking a bad thing? A heck of a lot more people get hurt on bikes but I don't heard you crusading about stopping families from riding them. Just a stat I looked up which you know I hardly ever do:

In 2010 in the U.S., almost 800 bicyclists were killed and there were an estimated 515,000 emergency department visits due to bicycle-related injuries. Data from 2005 show fatal and non-fatal crash-related injuries to bicyclists resulted in lifetime medical costs and productivity losses of $5 billion. ERGO, bikes are bad so ban them. This is called "Bob Logic". While it seems faulty to me I am sure Bob can defend it some how with more "Bob Logic".
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TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 31, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
You have no grasp of how "organized crime" was run during American prohibition. That is obvious.

Also people are criminals because they are. If you take away the income from the drugs, they move to kidnapping. They will move to other drugs. Do you REALLY think that criminals will just go get regular jobs? Are you serious?

Of course you have no proof. Of course it is just an opinion. Thank you for pointing that out.

Danny, you are great at blowing hot air. I know quite a bit about the history of organised crime in the USA, and a huge amount about the history of organised crime in Ireland. And criminals are not criminals because they are - that is just right-wing knee-jerk bigotry. Social conditions create criminals. Changing the social conditions - and that includes legislation on prostitution and soft drugs - changes the number of criminals in a society.

If you can't see that, I am not going to do the work for you. But no amount of bluster on your part changes it.


I believe you have a point. Just give everyone that is not that well off $250,000 so they do not have to work and find a job and they will stop doing illegal things...that is until their money runs out. Then you have to give them another $250,000 or they have to find a real job or...go to that life of crime because it sure beats real a real job.

Or give them an education and a good start in life.

In Limerick - which for a period had the highest homicide rate in Ireland, and one of the highest in Europe (about eight times the national average) one in four kids left school at twelve. And those dropouts came from the disadvantaged parts of town. They did not leave school by choice; there were no schools provided for kids from those districts. So at twelve they had finished their education - what choice was left to them but crime?

Today that situation has improved considerably. And gang-related homicides in Limerick have dropped down to the national average.

Many countries have high gun ownership. Finland is one. But they are hunters, and they use guns appropriate to their legitimate needs. The USA has a gun culture rather than a hunting culture. Who needs a high-powered rifle in an urban setting? Who ever needs an Uzi? Who needs a concealed handgun? No-one, if you are honest.

You don't need to ban guns in America, or reduce the number of people owning them (though that would work). You just need to enforce legislation keeping them out of the hands of the loonies, and you need to take away the guns no one needs. Unfortunately the gun lobby, and their apologists, will ensure that never happens, and you continue to have perfectly avoidable deaths on a regular basis.
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 1, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
In Limerick - which for a period had the highest homicide rate in Ireland, and one of the highest in Europe (about eight times the national average) one in four kids left school at twelve. So at twelve they had finished their education - what choice was left to them but crime?


Learning a trade or working unskilled labor?


Quote:
Who needs a concealed handgun? No-one, if you are honest.

Many people in the United States have avoiding being the victims of violent crime by having concealed handguns.


Quote:
you need to take away the guns no one needs.


Has it occurred to you that this might not be as feasible in a country that shares a 2,000-mile unsecured border with a country that has a homicide rate far greater than the U.S.'s as it is in Ireland? Legislation to get rid of "the guns no one needs" would certainly succeed in taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens; however, by definition, they're not the ones committing the crimes.

Quote:
you continue to have perfectly avoidable deaths on a regular basis.

All countries have thousands of annual perfectly avoidable deaths, in the name of autonomy and individual liberty.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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Come join 13-year-old Brenna Strong along with her mom, Bea, and her dad, Richard, as they spend a typical Saturday running errands and having fun together. What's not so typical is that Brenna's parents lawfully open carry handguns for self-defense. The Strongs join a growing number of families that are standing up for their 2nd Amendment rights by open carrying and bringing gun ownership out of the closet and into the mainstream. If you want to learn about the open carry of a handgun, or if you've wondered if open carry is right for you, then this book is what you need. My Parents Open Carry was written in the hope of providing a basic overview of the right to keep and bear arms as well as the growing practice of the open carry of a handgun. We fear our children are being raised with a biased view of the 2nd Amendment. Our goal is to provide a wholesome family book that reflects the views of the majority of the American people, i.e., that self-defense is a basic natural right and that firearms provide the most efficient means for that defense. We truly hope you will enjoy this book and read and discuss it with your children. As you read this book, you will learn about the growing practice of open carry, the 2nd Amendment and the right and responsibility of self-defense.

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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 1, 2014, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 31, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 30, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
You have no grasp of how "organized crime" was run during American prohibition. That is obvious.

Also people are criminals because they are. If you take away the income from the drugs, they move to kidnapping. They will move to other drugs. Do you REALLY think that criminals will just go get regular jobs? Are you serious?

Of course you have no proof. Of course it is just an opinion. Thank you for pointing that out.

Danny, you are great at blowing hot air. I know quite a bit about the history of organised crime in the USA, and a huge amount about the history of organised crime in Ireland. And criminals are not criminals because they are - that is just right-wing knee-jerk bigotry. Social conditions create criminals. Changing the social conditions - and that includes legislation on prostitution and soft drugs - changes the number of criminals in a society.

If you can't see that, I am not going to do the work for you. But no amount of bluster on your part changes it.


I believe you have a point. Just give everyone that is not that well off $250,000 so they do not have to work and find a job and they will stop doing illegal things...that is until their money runs out. Then you have to give them another $250,000 or they have to find a real job or...go to that life of crime because it sure beats real a real job.

Or give them an education and a good start in life.

In Limerick - which for a period had the highest homicide rate in Ireland, and one of the highest in Europe (about eight times the national average) one in four kids left school at twelve. And those dropouts came from the disadvantaged parts of town. They did not leave school by choice; there were no schools provided for kids from those districts. So at twelve they had finished their education - what choice was left to them but crime?

Today that situation has improved considerably. And gang-related homicides in Limerick have dropped down to the national average.

Many countries have high gun ownership. Finland is one. But they are hunters, and they use guns appropriate to their legitimate needs. The USA has a gun culture rather than a hunting culture. Who needs a high-powered rifle in an urban setting? Who ever needs an Uzi? Who needs a concealed handgun? No-one, if you are honest.

You don't need to ban guns in America, or reduce the number of people owning them (though that would work). You just need to enforce legislation keeping them out of the hands of the loonies, and you need to take away the guns no one needs. Unfortunately the gun lobby, and their apologists, will ensure that never happens, and you continue to have perfectly avoidable deaths on a regular basis.


Who decides what guns are needed? Oh wait, I know some liberal anti gun guys. I think I see your plan. Smile

Most here in the U.S. when they drop out of school it is their choosing not because there are no schools.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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