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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Guns don't kill people... (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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Well put.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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+2
R.S.
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
So the argument goes:

It's legal to kill unborn children [sic]: therefore it's okay to shoot the **** out of everything with stupidly powerful weapons. Oh yeah.

Makes perfect sense to me. Anyone for tennis?


Not sure if this was directed at me, but if it was, that's not my argument at all. First, I am not one of those arguing in favor of letting children handle weapons (even on supervised shooting ranges). I am arguing against that position (and against allowing anybody in society to privately own Uzis or high powered assault weapons). AGAINST. Secondly (as the abortion issue was brought up by someone else), for those here that consider the termination of a fetus no different than the murder/death of a person, then it follows that they would choose to save the 1,000 embryonic "lives" over the single life of the 5 year old girl. Yet, nobody here can bring themselves to say that they would actually do so. Could it be because they know that their actions in a such a scenario would contradict their anti-abortion stance? I don't know.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
@aces, Danny: If you think abortion is murder then certainly the woman is at least an accomplice. What is the usual punishment for accomplice to murder?

While there may be be a few people who believe that a woman who has an abortion is a murderer and thus deserves the punishment for murder, I think the percentage of such people even among those who wish to make abortion illegal is very low.

That points to the fact that most people--pro legal abortion or anti-legal abortion--have a sense that abortion is something different from murder, whether they admit it or not. See Lobo's comment earlier for the same argument on the other side.

To me, what those two arguments on both sides of the issue add up to, is that abortion is a very particular situation that needs its own case law. No amount of moral hairsplitting will ever solve it, because it is a social issue not a moral one.


Post for me where I claimed abortion was murder please. Your entire post is predicted on fictitious things I never claimed. Again nice looking straw man. No amount of hiding behind nonsense changes the fact a life is stopped from developing.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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And why is abortion killing, but not murder? There's premeditation, no self defense involved in most cases. If you think it's killing, then it's murder one.
Dannydoyle
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You say that in order to further your own argument. Again I said no such thing. Stop trying to speak for me please.

For clarification murder is a legal distinction. You are conflicting the two. All murder is killing but not all killing is murder. But keep making yourself feel better.

Also I know we live in a society. Murder is a distinction made by laws not personal judgments. You don't seem too see the difference.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Suppose you are the only adult in a fertility clinic. There is also a 5 year old girl (in a wheelchair, say) and a container of 1,000 frozen embryos. A devastating and quick moving fire breaks out and your only option is to either a) carry out the container of embryos, letting the 5 year old perish, or b) carry out the 5 year old girl, letting the 1,000 embryos be destroyed. Which would you choose?


Ron

Let's add that there is also a mother to be there who has fallen and can't get up, who is going to have an abortion. What do you do? Embryo, little girl in wheel chair, PG woman who was going to have an abortion. We could also throw in that there is a suitcase stuffed with 10 million dollars in unmarked bills but I guess that is getting silly isn't it?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:
U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8
Pecan_Creek
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Aces...

Is there something wrong with the word "pregnant"?

Why abbreviate it?

Could this be a sign of your repressed sexuality?
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Aces...

Is there something wrong with the word "pregnant"?

Why abbreviate it?



Could this be a sign of your repressed sexuality?


Sorry it upsets you.

I just keep spelling it wrong. Please explain how you feel it could be related to repressed sexuality? I do not find a correlation with your question of the two.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Dannydoyle
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On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:
U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8


I am fairly certain I never disputed this. Am I right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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It blows the theory that we can trust the experts out the water anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:
U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8


I am fairly certain I never disputed this. Am I right?


Yes, you are right. I actually posted that to support your position that ending the development of a life and murder are not the same thing.

It's acesover who regularly conflates legal abortion with murder.
Dannydoyle
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I suspected as much thank you.

It may not be my preference but it is the law. I can live with that.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:
U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8


I am fairly certain I never disputed this. Am I right?


Yes, you are right. I actually posted that to support your position that ending the development of a life and murder are not the same thing.

It's acesover who regularly conflates legal abortion with murder.


Many of your fellow lawyers and lawmakers are unsure of this as evidenced by these facts:

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act, passed in 2004, defines a fetus as a "child in uterus" and a person as being a legal crime victim "if a fetal injury or death occurs during the commission of a federal violent crime."[14] In the U.S., 36 states have laws with more harsh penalties if the victim is murdered while pregnant. Some of these laws defining the fetus as being a person, "for the purpose of criminal prosecution of the offender" (National Conference of State Legislatures, 2008). Laci Peterson, murdered in 2002, is one of the more high-profile homicides.

Just saying it is at this time a gray area. So my opinion on this is no in any way unfounded. Do you really know what the law will be 10 or 15 years from now? I certainly don't. But if I am alive my position will not have changed.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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The US Code is the law of the land. Of that, lawyers and lawmakers are quite certain.

Legally, the abortion of a non-viable fetus is not murder.
mastermindreader
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Back to the death penalty issue for a moment. It appears that Justice Scalia actively supported the death penalty for a man who was recently definitively exonerated by DNA evidence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/02......362.html
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
And why is abortion killing, but not murder? There's premeditation, no self defense involved in most cases. If you think it's killing, then it's murder one.


You are, of course, leaving out an element of murder.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
And why is abortion killing, but not murder? There's premeditation, no self defense involved in most cases. If you think it's killing, then it's murder one.


You are, of course, leaving out an element of murder.


More than one actually. Not to mention what I previously posted about the legal definition of "person" and "human being."
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

It may not be my preference but it is the law. I can live with that.


The fact that something is a "law" may not make it right or acceptable. We have had a history of unjust laws, some of which have been corrected over time.
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
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