On Sep 2, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:
So the argument goes:

It's legal to kill unborn children [sic]: therefore it's okay to shoot the **** out of everything with stupidly powerful weapons. Oh yeah.

Makes perfect sense to me. Anyone for tennis?

On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
@aces, Danny: If you think abortion is murder then certainly the woman is at least an accomplice. What is the usual punishment for accomplice to murder?

While there may be be a few people who believe that a woman who has an abortion is a murderer and thus deserves the punishment for murder, I think the percentage of such people even among those who wish to make abortion illegal is very low.

That points to the fact that most people--pro legal abortion or anti-legal abortion--have a sense that abortion is something different from murder, whether they admit it or not. See Lobo's comment earlier for the same argument on the other side.

To me, what those two arguments on both sides of the issue add up to, is that abortion is a very particular situation that needs its own case law. No amount of moral hairsplitting will ever solve it, because it is a social issue not a moral one.

On Sep 2, 2014, R.S. wrote:
Suppose you are the only adult in a fertility clinic. There is also a 5 year old girl (in a wheelchair, say) and a container of 1,000 frozen embryos. A devastating and quick moving fire breaks out and your only option is to either a) carry out the container of embryos, letting the 5 year old perish, or b) carry out the 5 year old girl, letting the 1,000 embryos be destroyed. Which would you choose?


Ron

U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

On Sep 3, 2014, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Aces...

Is there something wrong with the word "pregnant"?

Why abbreviate it?



Could this be a sign of your repressed sexuality?

On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:

U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

Quote:

On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:

U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

I am fairly certain I never disputed this. Am I right?

On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Quote:

On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

Quote:

On Sep 3, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. Not all killings are unlawful, as in the case of military combat casualties, for example.

The US Code defines "human being" as follows. It trumps state law and is the law of the land. Unless a fetus is actually born as described in the USC, it is not a human being. Hence, abortion of a non-viable fetus is NOT murder and cannot be construed as such:

Quote:

U.S. Code › Title 1 › Chapter 1 › § 8
1 U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

I am fairly certain I never disputed this. Am I right?

Yes, you are right. I actually posted that to support your position that ending the development of a life and murder are not the same thing.

It's acesover who regularly conflates legal abortion with murder.

On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
And why is abortion killing, but not murder? There's premeditation, no self defense involved in most cases. If you think it's killing, then it's murder one.

On Sep 3, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Quote:

On Sep 3, 2014, landmark wrote:
And why is abortion killing, but not murder? There's premeditation, no self defense involved in most cases. If you think it's killing, then it's murder one.

You are, of course, leaving out an element of murder.

On Sep 3, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

It may not be my preference but it is the law. I can live with that.