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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts 
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For all practical purposes, it's impossible to have gun ownership without having irresponsible gun ownership.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: That is a very good point. [And thank you, Lobo, for talking about the subject in hand.] I would postulate that sensible gun restrictions would put a huge onus onto already overworked law enforcement agencies, and also would take decades to put in place. It would be a slow, painful process. Now, my experience is that sometimes it is necessary to engage in slow, painful processes, in order to achieve a highly desirable outcome. This works on both macro and micro levels, IMHO. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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It is a good point, Lobo. And it creates a dilemma. But I don't think it's insurmountable. Though it may take time as tomski points out. I think that generational factors might also come into play and that eventually there will be cultural changes as well.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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That's the sort of long-term thinking that is music to my ears.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Well that's really the way most things change. New ideas only really take hold when old generations die. (I'm almost embarrassed at some of the things my grandparents and great grandparents believed.)
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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It all depends what you mean by "insurmountable." Ultimately, though, you have to be willing to accept some nonzero rate of unjustified gun deaths.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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We accept that nonzero rate in the UK. It is far preferable to the alternatives. I understand that our gun legislation is too extreme for the USA to contemplate, but any significant reduction in meaningless and avoidable killings surely would be preferable to the status quo.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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On Sep 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: Well that's really not a question. There will always be unjustifiable deaths. It's not a matter of accepting it or not, it's just the way it is. But there is no question that those deaths can be reduced. But back to generational changes- I remember when my German grandfather and uncles would all get together and drink beer. You knew it was time to leave the room when they started talking about why Hitler wasn't so bad. "He invented the Volkswagen, Bobby. Don't forget dot!" Back during the Watts riots, a couple of friends and I were watching on TV when my grandfather showed up, sat on the couch and watched silently. He finally spoke up. "Back in Germany ve didn't haf problems like dot. Ve just line dem up against the wall. Pop, pop, pop. No problem." We all just looked at each other is disbelief.  |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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Would I be right in assuming, Bob, (given your surname), that on the other side of the family you may have some distant relatives who were pop, pop, popped by my distant relatives? It's all relative! I'm here all week, try the veal!
When I was a child, some of my posh friends might go out shooting with their Dads. Guns were okay then, in this country. I'd love to go hunting; it's still possible, but I'm priced out of it. I love the idea of a bucolic idyll, where I take my sons out hunting, having learned it as a child myself. Ain't gonna happen now, though. Certain sociopathic individuals f****d it up for the rest of us. But, I'm pleased that another Dunblane is less likely, although not impossible of course. Meanwhile, if I didn't live in an inner city, and had a reason to shoot stuff, then I could easily get a license to hold certain firearms under certain conditions. Maybe I'll move to the country after all? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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You'd be right in assuming that. My paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Cassidy, was in fact present at the Easter Massacre and later became an IRA member. I learned early NEVER to mention England or the Queen when she was present.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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Well, we are mostly a country of umitigated c****, of which I am no exception. However, I salute your paternal grandmother; she sounds like an eminently sensible woman, given the precedents of Cromwell and all who came after him.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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On Sep 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: It really is a matter of accepting it. If I made you the Gun Czar and let you pass all laws you deemed reasonable and that became out new framework, we'd still have some number of gun deaths, and you'd accept them. That's the cost of doing business. But other people would not accept them. As the president said, "If it could save one life, we have to try." So what would those people do after one of those deaths made national news? Well, of course, they'd start clamoring for unreasonable legislation.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 183 Posts
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On Sep 4, 2014, acesover wrote: I said PRESUMABLY they would be used. But rather than get bogged down in details, and speculate on intended uses, let's simplify it. Assume that whatever YOU, Acesover, consider to be the very start of life is what's in those petri dishes/tubes/containers, and that the intended purpose is to fully develop all of them, OK? Now, does this change anything for you? Under YOUR definition of the beginning of life, would you now let the 5 year old girl perish and save those 1,000 "lives"? Remember, all those 1,000 embryos/cells/whatever have already met YOUR standard for whatever YOU consider to be the very start of life. Also, you didn't comment on whether you agreed that reducing the abortion is important, and that giving teens access to birth control is a good way to do that (with the added bonus of reducing STDs as well!). 
Thanks. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22066 Posts
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The point it always moves the goal post. If a certain number of deaths is acceptable, then someone ALWAYS is going to say one is too many. Therefore it stops nowhere short of complete gun grabbing. Something is always the "why should we have such easy access to___ " Something ALWAYS becomes the thing that is the worst and someone always wants to take that away.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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But isn't the actual business of government to do business? It doesn't really matter what the fringe says, you just get your hands dirty in the pot of actual business.
It's fascinating to see the view from Europe on Obama. We see his unpopularity, and it has petrified his image in most people's minds at a former time, when he was more appealing, and fulfilled their dreams of a 'fairer tomorrow'. Now he is slated from every side for his domestic policies, perhaps fairly perhaps not. But I would point towards other national leaders, who got their arms full of gore, or pig sh*t or both, and twenty years later were recognised for their decisions. The current President is in favour of reforming healthcare and gun control. From the other side of the Atlantic, it's a total no-brainer. And well done for electing a President who got his hands dirty. The USA will look back on him better than they look at him today, is my prediction. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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I think your prediction is quite unlikely to come true.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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On Sep 5, 2014, R.S. wrote: Stop it. |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 183 Posts
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On Sep 4, 2014, tomsk192 wrote: I have the same feeling. Especially in light of such unprecedented and virulent opposition by the opposing party. A party who early on publicly announced that their top priority was to see that Obama be a 1 term president. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts
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He grasped a poisoned chalice from the stupidest national leader of all time, and then made it vaguely palatable. I'd call that an achievement.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12587 Posts
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Lobo- acknowledging that there will always be unjustifiable gun deaths is the same as accepting it. And I'm sure you know that "If the is just one death, that's too many" is just hyperbole. Your prediction doesn't logically follow.
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Posted: Sep 4, 2014 10:17 pm 
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