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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Guns don't kill people... (35 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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I don't know how much credit Obama deserves for OBL's death, but I suspect not much. The military and relevant government agencies were, of course, going to continue to look for him, and I think any president would have signed off on the mission once he'd been found. I was giving for instances, not making a comprehensive list; I wasn't saying, "These are the only four good things he's done." Since it was a short list, I kept it to things that I think he had more direct influence on.

All of which is to say, if Romney and/or McCain had been elected, I think Bin Laden would still be dead; however, I also think the DOJ would still be vigorously defending DOMA in federal court.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't know how much credit Obama deserves for OBL's death, but I suspect not much. The military and relevant government agencies were, of course, going to continue to look for him, and I think any president would have signed off on the mission once he'd been found. I was giving for instances, not making a comprehensive list; I wasn't saying, "These are the only four good things he's done." Since it was a short list, I kept it to things that I think he had more direct influence on.

All of which is to say, if Romney and/or McCain had been elected, I think Bin Laden would still be dead; however, I also think the DOJ would still be vigorously defending DOMA in federal court.


In a practical real sense you are correct. Of course, then he's not responsible for employment rate, crime, inflation,...

Leaders are in the odd place of being responsible--they have the ultimate authority, and not being responsible--it's a big world and lots of things happen that are beyond personal control.

Of course in political discussions, leaders we like are responsible for all and only the good stuff and leaders we dislike are responsible for all and only the stuff we don't like.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
mastermindreader
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I assume you feel that the DOJ should defend DOMA simply because it was a law passed by Congress. Technically you may be correct, though I personally don't think that the DOJ should be required to defend laws that appear to be patently unconstitutional. At most, perhaps, they should have just given a lip service "defense."
ed rhodes
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Some analyst said that was Nixon's problem in the end. He'd worked so hard to get to be President, and when he finally got there, he found out he didn't have all the power he'd always assumed the office carried. (Odd since he WAS actually VICE President for awhile, you think he would have noticed.)
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 6, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I assume you feel that the DOJ should defend DOMA simply because it was a law passed by Congress. Technically you may be correct, though I personally don't think that the DOJ should be required to defend laws that appear to be patently unconstitutional. At most, perhaps, they should have just given a lip service "defense."


No, I completely agree with you.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Lobo- Ignore my last post. I misread what you wrote and so my response makes no sense. You were not saying the DOJ should have vigorously defended DOMA, but that McCain or Romney DOJs would have.

So, never mind...

But I'm glad, at least, to see that you didn't agree with those who just cavalierly stated that the President has accomplished nothing.
Dannydoyle
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Should a man who won a Nobel even prior to starting work brag about the killing of another human being as an accomplishment?

The man would be different ad no matter who was in office. Only question is would we be better off as a nation with Romney or McCain? Can't tell alternative futures but my knee jerk is a resounding no.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I don't know how much credit Obama deserves for OBL's death, but I suspect not much. The military and relevant government agencies were, of course, going to continue to look for him, and I think any president would have signed off on the mission once he'd been found. I was giving for instances, not making a comprehensive list; I wasn't saying, "These are the only four good things he's done." Since it was a short list, I kept it to things that I think he had more direct influence on.

All of which is to say, if Romney and/or McCain had been elected, I think Bin Laden would still be dead; however, I also think the DOJ would still be vigorously defending DOMA in federal court.


In a practical real sense you are correct. Of course, then he's not responsible for employment rate, crime, inflation,...

Leaders are in the odd place of being responsible--they have the ultimate authority, and not being responsible--it's a big world and lots of things happen that are beyond personal control.

Of course in political discussions, leaders we like are responsible for all and only the good stuff and leaders we dislike are responsible for all and only the stuff we don't like.


I agree that presidents, in particular, get too much credit for the good (from their supporters) and too much blame for the bad (from their detractors). Nevertheless, they do have more influence in some things than others. "Getting Bin Laden," IMO, is one of those "others."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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On Sep 6, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- Ignore my last post. I misread what you wrote and so my response makes no sense. You were not saying the DOJ should have vigorously defended DOMA, but that McCain or Romney DOJs would have.

So, never mind...

But I'm glad, at least, to see that you didn't agree with those who just cavalierly stated that the President has accomplished nothing.


He accomplished a lot. Is any of it good is the debate?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 6, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Should a man who won a Nobel even prior to starting work brag about the killing of another human being as an accomplishment?

The man would be different ad no matter who was in office. Only question is would we be better off as a nation with Romney or McCain? Can't tell alternative futures but my knee jerk is a resounding no.


We can't hold the president responsible for drug use among Nobel committee members. Smile
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Funny enough, I agree. It's not the Presidents fault they decided to give him a Nobel.

Although killing bin Laden is hardly inconsistent with promoting peace. Seems to me like it was essential to an attempt to restore peace.
LobowolfXXX
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Definitely agree. Addition by subtraction. Or something.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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On Sep 6, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:

I can't think of one substantial thing he has done worthy of suppkrt.

Also do you know why they have to keep rebranding things and changing names? Why they have to call them "dreamers" and not illegal immigrants? It is because if they told the truth they would get nowhere.

I do not know who first came up with the "dreamer" label, but it clearly dates back a long ways. I suspect before the last Bush presidency. And it was used by Dems and Repubs alike.

"The DREAM Act (bacronym for Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors) is an American legislative proposal first introduced in the Senate on August 1, 2001, S. 1291 by Dick Durbin and Orrin Hatch. This bill would provide conditional permanent residency to certain immigrants of good moral character who graduate from U.S. high schools, arrived in the United States as minors, and lived in the country continuously for at least five years prior to the bill's enactment."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
mastermindreader
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That's correct. It is NOT a term used as a synonym for "illegal immigrant."

I can't understand the callousness of those who would just throw these kids out after they've spent nearly all their lives here.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Should a man who won a Nobel even prior to starting work brag about the killing of another human being as an accomplishment?

The man would be different ad no matter who was in office. Only question is would we be better off as a nation with Romney or McCain? Can't tell alternative futures but my knee jerk is a resounding no.


Or, given McCain's age and the stresses of the job would we have been better of as a nation with President Palin? *shudder*
"All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast!" - Oscar Wilde
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, ed rhodes wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Should a man who won a Nobel even prior to starting work brag about the killing of another human being as an accomplishment?

The man would be different ad no matter who was in office. Only question is would we be better off as a nation with Romney or McCain? Can't tell alternative futures but my knee jerk is a resounding no.


Or, given McCain's age and the stresses of the job would we have been better of as a nation with President Palin? *shudder*

Please don't do that.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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On Sep 6, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
That's correct. It is NOT a term used as a synonym for "illegal immigrant."

I can't understand the callousness of those who would just throw these kids out after they've spent nearly all their lives here.


Bob you KNOW the issue is not at all that simple. Come on.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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I'm talking specifically about the Dream act kids and not the immigration problem in general. The fact is that I probably agree with you on much about the problem.

But just focusing on these kids for the moment, who have spent most of their lives here, gone to school here, and know no other country as home- do you really think they should be just deported to countries where many of them have never even lived before? Do you think there should be some special consideration?

I know you are a man with compassion and I actually suspect that you might agree with me that there should be.
Dannydoyle
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So not just these kids, but obviously the parents as well right?
Danny Doyle
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mastermindreader
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As far as I know, it only applies to the kids if they wish to stay. Given that the act was passed quite some time ago, the "kids" involved are actually all at least 18 by now.
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