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landmark
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On Sep 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, landmark wrote:
Because of the absolute Constitutional Right to starve.


Maybe the government could force one's parents to provide room and board until age 70 instead of 18. That would seem to serve.

Society can be organized in many different ways. A way that guarantees that many will barely survive despite working 40 hours a week is a morally bankrupt one.



1) I agree, and I'm glad we don't live in a society like that.

2) A society that takes it upon itself to protect people from all of their choices is going to be a financially bankrupt one.


So now all we're doing is haggling about price...

At $8/hr, 40hr work week, grosses about $16,000/yr.

Poverty line for two -person household under age 65: $15,450. In NY and CA, I expect it's higher.

http://www.irp.wisc.edu/faqs/faq1.htm

That's millions of Americans. So I guess we do live in a society like that.
RNK
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No- we live in a society that offers minimum wage jobs that are meant for people to work while continuing their training/education to obtain the skills necessary to achieve the opportunity that America offers for EVERBODY to better themselves if they CHOOSE or WANT to. America is not a place for people to work a minimum wage job that requires no advanced skill so that they can have and enjoy all the benefits that someone who has invested countless hours and money in schooling or training for a job that requires advanced skills and knowledge in order to perform their job successfully. In America, the opportunity is out there, it's up to the individual and one's drive and determination to achieve the dream.

Because SOME people work hard to achieve success and a better life for themselves and their family doesn't mean that those in America who chooses not to work hard should be entitled to have or make the same amount of money of those who do!
0pus
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I am just getting lost in the "logic" of these posts. There still seems to be some conviction on the part of some posters that the purpose of higher education is (or should be) solely as a investment in training for a (presumably) better job. I don't agree.
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On Sep 11, 2014, 0pus wrote:
I am just getting lost in the "logic" of these posts. There still seems to be some conviction on the part of some posters that the purpose of higher education is (or should be) solely as a investment in training for a (presumably) better job. I don't agree.




Honestly it seems like you are the one using the word "solely" no one else.

-------------------------------------------------------

Here is my response to the question of education for education sake.

The question posed was as follows:
In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

My answer is as follows:
Absolutely none if you can afford it. It is a wonderful idea. But to seek knowledge at the cost of neglect of ones family is not only unjust it is selfish and self centered and a person has to be non caring almost a Sociopath.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Sep 11, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2014, landmark wrote:
Because of the absolute Constitutional Right to starve.


Maybe the government could force one's parents to provide room and board until age 70 instead of 18. That would seem to serve.

Society can be organized in many different ways. A way that guarantees that many will barely survive despite working 40 hours a week is a morally bankrupt one.



1) I agree, and I'm glad we don't live in a society like that.

2) A society that takes it upon itself to protect people from all of their choices is going to be a financially bankrupt one.


So now all we're doing is haggling about price...

At $8/hr, 40hr work week, grosses about $16,000/yr.

Poverty line for two -person household under age 65: $15,450. In NY and CA, I expect it's higher.

http://www.irp.wisc.edu/faqs/faq1.htm

That's millions of Americans. So I guess we do live in a society like that.


I think we're most likely haggling over the word "guarantees."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
0pus
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Quote:
On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:

The question posed was as follows:
In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

My answer is as follows:
Absolutely none if you can afford it. It is a wonderful idea. But to seek knowledge at the cost of neglect of ones family is not only unjust it is selfish and self centered and a person has to be non caring almost a Sociopath.


I do not understand what you are responding to with
Quote:
Absolutely none if you can afford it.

And
Quote:
. . . to seek knowledge at the cost of neglect of ones family. . .

assumes facts not in evidence. You presuppose that education = neglect of one's family. Where did that come from? I think that that is an enormous and unfounded assumption.
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At the risk of misspeaking for Aces, I believe he was trying to say that if you have a family and can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education for it's own sake, then it's a problem when you choose to do so in a field with (virtually) no marketable upside.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
RNK
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Let me refrain my previous statement. It's just not about education or training. Obviously to work in a field for a business that pays a descent wage typically requires one to have an education in the field or training, i.e. Doctor, lawyer, scientist, insurance, real-estate etc..... Now- if you have ambition and drive one could open their own business and choose what they want to offer the community. There are numerous stories of people who have become successful starting out with nothing here in America. Factors that contributed to their success was mainly determination, perseverance and HARD WORK. My point- ANYONE willing to work HARD can achieve success here in America. Take it upon YOURSELF to be successful and eventually the doors will open.

RNK
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On Sep 11, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
At the risk of misspeaking for Aces, I believe he was trying to say that if you have a family and can't afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a college education for it's own sake, then it's a problem when you choose to do so in a field with (virtually) no marketable upside.


There are MANY forms of grants/scholarships and financial aid available for such cases. Or do what most people do- take out school loans if you want your college education bad enough. Or work a job while going to school to pay for it as MANY do.
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On Sep 11, 2014, 0pus wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:

The question posed was as follows:
In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

My answer is as follows:
Absolutely none if you can afford it. It is a wonderful idea. But to seek knowledge at the cost of neglect of ones family is not only unjust it is selfish and self centered and a person has to be non caring almost a Sociopath.


I do not understand what you are responding to with
Quote:
Absolutely none if you can afford it.

And
Quote:
. . . to seek knowledge at the cost of neglect of ones family. . .

assumes facts not in evidence. You presuppose that education = neglect of one's family. Where did that come from? I think that that is an enormous and unfounded assumption.


We were speaking of a college education being used in order to find a position (job, occupation) and use what you learned from attending college and gaining knowledge. Not to sure if you are aware of it or not. But college is not free (sarcastic). In order to attend you must pay. Where does said money come from? Always government loans of course. So if one's idea is to attend college and spend money that takes away from family just to gain knowledge for knowledge sake is, as I stated before selfish etc.

Many people become professional students. This would probably be widespread in philosophy majors as there is really not much out there that utilizes a degree in philosophy other than to teach philosophy. Read some of my other posts about getting a degree in philosophy.

Responding to this: In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

I responded with this: Absolutely none if you can afford it


Example. Some people buy magic effects to learn how they work. they are not magicians they just want to know. Gain knowledge. In so doing let us suppose that they do not have enough money to pay the rent but they purchase a magic effect to see how it works. Does that make sense to you. however if they can afford it. Well knock yourself out and buy.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
0pus
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On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:

We were speaking of a college education being used in order to find a position (job, occupation) and use what you learned from attending college and gaining knowledge


I had not realized that that was what this thread was talking about. I asked my original question to see if that was what you were talking about.

Clearly it was.

You are the guy who thinks that education's only purpose is job training. You see absolutely no value or purpose in seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake.
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On Sep 11, 2014, 0pus wrote:
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On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:

We were speaking of a college education being used in order to find a position (job, occupation) and use what you learned from attending college and gaining knowledge


I had not realized that that was what this thread was talking about. I asked my original question to see if that was what you were talking about.

Clearly it was.

You are the guy who thinks that education's only purpose is job training. You see absolutely no value or purpose in seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake.


OMG. What don't you understand? I responded with this: Absolutely none if you can afford it.

Education is wonderful. Knowledge is wonderful. But not at the expense of your family or someone else's money. Your own money and your own time without neglecting your responsibilities. Should you purchase magic tricks and learn how they work and not pay your rent of get your kids new clothes? What don't you understand here?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
stoneunhinged
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Knowledge costs nothing but hard work.

An "education" costs what an institution charges.

To charge for an education implies that the education is an investment towards one's future.

Whether the future is about economics or happiness is uo to the investor.
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I am sorry that I cannot understand what you are saying.

Quote:
On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:
Responding to this: In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

I responded with this: Absolutely none if you can afford it


There were two questions here.

(1) What ever happened to seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake? I assume (but may be wrong) that you took this as a rhetorical question, and did not intend to answer it, because "Absolutely none if you can afford it" really makes no sense as an answer to this question.

(2) Do you see no value or purpose in that [i.e., seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake]? I had concluded that "Absolutely none if you can afford it" was an answer to this question. Your reply to "Do you see no value or purpose . . ." was "Absolutely none." That seems to state unequivocally that you see absolutely no value or purpose in seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake. The additional phrase "if you can afford it" seems to have been thrown in by you. It doesn't make any sense to me as a qualifier to your "no value" response. You seem to be proposing some sort of economic quid pro quo -- that the value of education and knowledge is measured by increased earnings. Otherwise education and knowledge are extravagances only to be enjoyed by the rich. I don't agree with that.
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Aces, you are saying, are you not, that there's absolutely no problem with education for its own sake, if you can afford it?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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We are not to take risks to pursue our loves and interests? We should sacrifice joy and adventure to security and safety? Find some kind of work that suits the bosses and do it until we retire?

These aren't pioneer values in my mind.
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On Sep 11, 2014, Pop Haydn wrote:
We are not to take risks to pursue our loves and interests? We should sacrifice joy and adventure to security and safety? Find some kind of work that suits the bosses and do it until we retire?

These aren't pioneer values in my mind.


I don't think it's a should/shouldn't issue. Some are adventurers, and others are more risk-averse. Roll your dice and take your chances, or not. IMO, "should" plays two roles: One "should" be free to choose which path to set out upon," and one "should" be willing/prepared to live with the consequences of the choice(s) one makes.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Acesover's answer made no sense. It seems that he may have misread the question and understood it as "Do you have a problem with education for education's sake?"

So I'd cut him a break on this one.

But it's too bad that the kind of education one gets depends on how much money one has. What ever happened to free public universities like Hunter College in New York? My great aunt Olga got her bachelor's degree there, the first in our family. .And she just did it for the joy of it, not to qualify for a job.
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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On Sep 11, 2014, 0pus wrote:
I am sorry that I cannot understand what you are saying.

Quote:
On Sep 11, 2014, acesover wrote:
Responding to this: In other words, you think the only purpose of education is job training. What ever happened to seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake? Do you see no value or purpose in that?

I responded with this: Absolutely none if you can afford it


There were two questions here.



(1) What ever happened to seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake? I assume (but may be wrong) that you took this as a rhetorical question, and did not intend to answer it, because "Absolutely none if you can afford it" really makes no sense as an answer to this question.

(2) Do you see no value or purpose in that [i.e., seeking knowledge of knowledge's sake]? I had concluded that "Absolutely none if you can afford it" was an answer to this question. Your reply to "Do you see no value or purpose . . ." was "Absolutely none." That seems to state unequivocally that you see absolutely no value or purpose in seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake. The additional phrase "if you can afford it" seems to have been thrown in by you. It doesn't make any sense to me as a qualifier to your "no value" response. You seem to be proposing some sort of economic quid pro quo -- that the value of education and knowledge is measured by increased earnings. Otherwise education and knowledge are extravagances only to be enjoyed by the rich. I don't agree with that.


I obviously did not make my answer clear. I meant it to convey that there is absolutely no reason to not further ones education if one can afford it or if helps them succeed.

That is not saying only the rich should get additional education. What I am trying to say that education for education's sake is a waste of times and money if you are neglecting your responsibilities and family. let us say that you enjoy science, physics, etc. and you are an accountant. A course is offered locally that cost let us say $1,000 and you really want to take it because you like the subject. However you cannot afford it because you just had another child and can hardly make ends meet now. Should you take said course just for the sake of education and neglect your child and not pay the rent but satisfy your curiosity about said course?

Let us say that you are still this accountant and two courses come along. One would help you in getting a promotion at work and the other is the course you want to take to satisfy your curiosity for useless knowledge for your own sake. Of course we can argue that any knowledge is useful, but I believe you get my drift. Which should you take the course that helps you advance yourself and help better your position in life or the one that satisfies your curiosity? Of course some will choose the course that makes "them" happy. Which as I stated earlier makes them self centered and not really caring for others and shirking responsibility. But they get to hang out with others of the same interest and they enjoy themselves as their family suffers but their curiosity is satisfied. Wonderful. Smile

I definitely agree that one should learn as much as one can in this life. The world is full of wonderful things and curiosity is a wonderful trait. However one must prioritize. Don't become a professional student. Don't become the proverbial "stumbling block".

Isn't it strange how princes and kings,
and clowns that caper in sawdust rings,
and common people, like you and me,
are builders for eternity?

Each is given a list of rules;
a shapeless mass; a bag of tools.
And each must fashion, ere life is flown,
A stumbling block, or a Stepping-Stone.
R. L. Sharpe - See more at: http://allpoetry.com/poem/4508491-A-Stum......tZs.dpuf
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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