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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
It has nothing to do with post count. It has to do with respect. When you come in and the only posts you have are to push your own products, yet offer no help in general then it seems as if you want to do nothing but sell your own stuff and move on. Many here offer both great services as well as fairly regular help. Josh London (To use him in a positive reference!) does this as well as Michael Eaton.
When you are new and young (Which you happen to be both.) and we know nothing of you AND some self admitted glitches creep up in material what is it you expect? You are asking for money from people for a product. You are holding yourself up for some scrutiny at this point. Such is life. Don't be offended by the natural inclination of people to say "well this kid can't show the ropes if he is 22. Someone has to show HIM! If you spent more time getting to know people and less time trying to sell or teach people you would find much of the resistance gone. Now Mindpro goes and gives a wonderful review and without interacting with us for more than 20 posts you start passing judgment on the behavior of others. Telling us how to act and complaining about this and that and somehow expect people you just called out to now spend money with you is a sales technique? You say we wait for one thing to be wrong to pounce? Well as the author whose responsibility is it to not have those things? You say yourself that you indeed made mistakes and now you act as if it is our fault for pointing it out. Personally I never said a word about the original offering. What you are showing right here is the hubris of youth. Sorry to tell you but right up unitl your last post things seemed to be going so well. You did the equivalent of saying that people need to be more tolerant of a restaurant with food that has some mistakes in it. You blame potential customers for your mistakes. Worse yet you blame them right to their faces. The community here is the problem, not anything you might have done. Post count has nothing to do with experience and anyone here for more than 5 minutes knows that. It is stupid they keep track of such things. But to be calling people out for not being open minded and such I have to ask if you think this helps position you any differently? Really your efforts would have been better served not telling everyone else they are the problem. I wonder what Mindpro thinks?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Thanks for you post Nick. Like any other community it can be tarnished by only a small handful of bad seeds. In the past this has run off many working professionals, full-time or part-time, or causes members here to back off and not contribute. Specifically this forum for the most part in my opinion is one of the most helpful and productive on the Café. There is only a few guys that aren't here with support and the best of intentions, or with personal agendas. Seems the Café has been making a conscious effort to clean this up and has removed the problematic causes.
It's funny how smooth, helpful and positive this forum is or can be. I have seen several people return and guys that just lurked but never particiapte begin to come back since it has been cleaned up. So Nick I invite you to stick around as you have some great ideas and would be a welcome member of the community. We must not let the problems of a few guys dictate our neighborhood. I receive messages daily of members that come here specifically for this forum and the posts of a few very specific members. We need more of that and to encourage members, even with a low post count. There is some suspicion when a new member shows up and immediately begins selling or pushing his wares. This is understandable. It is a sign of the times. Today with do it yourself websites, audio and video access, it has created a breed of new "wannabe experts" only looking to make a quick buck and use the Café to push their wares. I understand this perception and often have felt that if they participated as a contributing member, they and their wares would be more credible and respected here. I think members prefer to support their own under these circumstances. There are guys here like Scott Burton, David Theil, Lou Serrano, Jim Snack and others that get great support, some from their first days as a beginner here, due to the way they present themselves and contribute. They offer insight and content in addition to what they are trying to sell and should be applauded. I would like to see you be among them. Between your love for mentalsim and your career and understanding in today's marketing world, you would have a lot to contribute. And if ever the problems should return, rather than be pushed away, I hope you, as these others would stand up to any problem guys in an effort to maintain our community and your interests here. I may see Steve Brooks this week and if I do I can let him know about your interest, if you still are. I agree it's the respect and passion for the art and the business of the art that is so important and must be maintained. I wish you the best of luck with the course, btw and you are correct, it is not just for beginners and I do think seasoned performers could gain from it as well. As entertainers we should always be a work in progress in both our performance and our business behind it. There is no better feeling of helping others to succeed. I try to do it every day and you have the ability to do so as well with your course and participation here. Stick around, pop in every once in a while, even this last post was very thought provoking. Posted: Oct 8, 2014 11:07 am Oops, I posted this while Danny must have been typing and I had not read Danny post before posting my last one. Danny brings up some good points. But so does Nick in explaining why he hasn't been more of a participant here. As I say the community has not been so inviting lately with some of the problems and personal agendas going on. It literally keeps people away and prevents them from wanting to be part of things. I get it. This forum in specifically has many lurkers and more takers than contributors, mainly in my opinion due to the nature of the topics and content. Many come here to seek answers and direction. They feel they are less experienced and therefore less qualified to offer their opinion or perhaps have a concern in being inexperienced or youthful. Look at some of the dumb things some of the younger guys here say or think. Think back to our younger and inexperienced days and the things we may have said or thought. Thank God the Internet was not around back then to maintain a permanent records of some of my unintelligent thoughts, actions, or youthful inadequacies. I have made many mistakes during the learning process, which is one of the reasons I post so regularly here to help to try to prevent others from doing the same. Also to impart knowledge that only can come with experience. It's the knowledge that can separate someone from youthful perceptions and actions to more mature perceptions and understandings. I don't know Nick. But have been impressed with his approach and mindset since first coming onto the scene a couple of years ago. He took some shots, directly addressed every single question (still more than I could say for the others that come to mind here-I'm still waiting for my questions to be answered), even from naysayers and hung in there, I was impressed. Most of them came from his young perceptions and actions, likely combined with his exuberance. Just the fact that he originally had the foresight to ask me for a review of the original course showed some level of understanding and insight. I get Danny's point. High school seniors think they are so grown up and mature and ready for the real world. Then they arrive at college and quickly realize they are not and there is a greater world of which they are the lowest on the totem pole. The same happens to college students. They think they are well on their way to being professionals in the corporate or professional worlds, where again, in reality they are nowhere near it and are again are not the big deal they think they are and are in actuality the low man on the totem pole of the real professional world. This has always been very annoying to those in the real world. Most learn quickly of the true reality. Truth be told, the same happens in entertainment, as well as around here. Yes, it would have been better if he would have taken the last two years to be a contributing member here while revising his course. It could have provided the community support and respect Danny speaks of, and eliminate the "he's just here to sell his wares" that many immediately will feel. I get it. I think it would have been a great move for this venture as well. I already have well over 140 members here that have messaged me with their email address for when my materials are finally released. This type of thing could've been a great asset to Nick as well. When you loo back at Benji, more recently Josh and a few other "pop-ins" that are quickly seen (transparent) to be here only to sell their wares, they are subjected to, as Danny says, a different and greater level of scrutiny than other members or even others with known experience who release products for sale. As a matter of fact, during the Benji threads I was asked if I was worried that when I started releasing my materials if I was putting a target on my back to be subject to the same level of scrutiny that I and others here were addressing Benji with. My answer was no, I wasn't concerned. The reasons why is because of two things...1.) I am known as a regular contributor here, not just someone that is here to sell my materials, and 2.) it is well known and documented that my materials are based on my decades of experience as a working professional in this business. Even more so from the very unique perspective of a full-time professional entertainer, as agent/agency owner, a producer and promoter. Those are some extremely unique perspectives that are unavailable from most others (if not all others) and again is documented and well-established. So because of these two things (there are also many more) it would not be the same as a young inexperienced, unproven, newbie here to this forum. I think Nick offers some great insight that he could chime in about, even if casually relating it to his course. He could answer "in my course I address this very topic as I believe..." He could be contributing, while offering some insight into what is contained in his course. Also I have found that contributing here has allowed me great insight as to what to include in my course. A quick story...I set out to originally revise my original entertainment business course (not performance pieces here) from the late eighties/early nineties. Many things had changed, faxes came and went, while I had a car phone since '85, most still hadn't as the cell boom hadn't hit big yet, answering machines have been replaced by voicemail, and computers weren't really on the radar in my original course content. Trust me, to be re-released it needed major updating. In the process of deciding to do so, and then actually starting to do it, I received many additional topics, insights and ideas that should be included in the course, based on my participation here in this very forum. Some even topics that members literally asked me to include in the revised course. I eventually had over 1200 pages of such notes. Then in doing the updates and revisionments, it became confusing and a conflict of sorts. The course was about how to start and establish your entertainer business, yet some of the things I was being asked to include was about more advanced content like working with agents and agencies, residency shows, the school and college markets, touring, press & media, fundraising, self-prodcued shows, opening for national/celebrity acts, media appearances, breaking the $1,000 price point, and many other more advanced topics and content. So it quickly then became an additional book, then that book became a second course. Today (which is why it still has not been released, it is two full courses and forty individual learning modules (manual and audio). The content is still growing. My one course is turning into a professional library. I always wanted to do something like this in my retirement, but this is all happening while I am still on the road working 42 weeks a year. My point is so much greater content for my resources came from being an active and contributing member here. I think Nick could've benefited from this greatly too. Where I disagree with Danny is the "calling people out for there not being open-minded". I'm not sure that is what this really is rather than him being aware of the ridicule and problem-makers around here that quickly get a personal agenda or vendetta. It literally scares people away or prevents them from participating. Nick has proven his tough skin and ability to accept criticism, so I don't believe that is what has prevented him from contributing, but more so the tactics by those that create nonproductive nonsense and accusations. I can see not wanting to subject himself to that. People come here to learn from professionals and those that have experienced and attained what they have yet to do but are seeking. This should be the basis of this section, but when those that should be listening, asking questions and taking notes, use this for other than this intended use, if I was young or new I would be concerned and apprehensive as well. Again, it comes down to experience. Nick is not claiming to have all of the answers, but does have something valid to offer. But just like a great album, movie or other piece of work, the work itself is only part of the equation, the promoting of it is equally important. This is where Nick's participation here could help in this facet. Some of the worse promoted products come from marketers. Danny's points and what I have expressed here should be valid points that Nick or any of these younger guys should be considering seriously. Youth is great, it's a shame it's wasted on the young and inexperienced. It does subject you to a certain set of perceptions and circumstances that others with greater experience may not have to be subjected to. This should seriously be understood and adapted accordingly. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I should say I don't consider Josh a "pop in". He regularly helps people here without a sales pitch.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I guess. It seems since he became a "solopreneur" he only pops in to talk about his services rather than contribute to the regular posts and proceedings, which is what I was referring to. Benji for the most part did too, but both of them before becoming "experts" at least popped in as contributing members.
Lou often promotes his wares too but also contributes to non-promotional threads. This is more of what I meant. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I really have seen Josh contribute other than his own stuff. I never know if he is right it wrong because it is about web stuff LOL. But he contributed all the same.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Yeah, perhaps I have tuned out him and that topic since his original posts and his unwillingness to address my questions.
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, Nick Kolenda wrote: Enough said about this point from Mindpro and Danny above. I will only add that regardless of the reason not to regularly contribute, to come in only when it is self serving is a bit distasteful to me. I totally respect ones decision not to regularly post and if they advertise here, then in my mind they have earned the right to limit their posts to their own endeavors. I love the fact that you reached out to Steve Brooks. Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, Mindpro wrote: One of the most important things I have learned from Mindpro's posts here is that running a performance business is extremely complex and dynamic when it comes to teaching/learning. We all have individual skill sets and desired outcomes. Most courses are offered only from the perspective of the career the author has successfully (hopefully) navigated by applying their own skill sets and ambitions that they used to formulate their own business model. What really excites me about what a future offering from Mindpro might include is that I believe he will attempt to provide a broader approach that allows one to match their own chosen path to the material provided. |
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Nick Kolenda New user 44 Posts |
First, I just want to clarify that I wasn’t calling anyone out. I emphasized that “I’m not accusing anyone – I just wanted to explain why I haven’t contributed in the past.” I’m sorry if my wording was unclear. I was just trying to say that, if I perceived a more welcoming environment, I would have felt more apt to contribute along the way. I think that if the Café projected a more supportive vibe, then there would be fewer “pop ins” because people would feel more apt to contribute, even when they’re not promoting a product. That’s all I was trying to say.
Second, thank you for your detailed response, Mindpro. I truly appreciate your ability to give constructive feedback in a healthy and welcoming manner. I can see the logic in your arguments, so I will stick around for a bit. My initial judgment of the Café was from 2005 (and a couple years ago, in 2012), so I will give the Café another shot and start giving my input. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The problem with a welcoming environment is that you make that our responsibility. How many posts of a helpful nature have you made that did not directly involve your own products being pushed?
Can you not see why when the only thing you ever do is push yourself maybe a "welcoming" atmosphere is not so easy? People start to feel like little more than marks to buy the next thing. Especially not being an advertiser. Glad you reached out on that. But your posts continue to blame the community for you not being involved. Respect is something you must give to get and if all you do is push your own products then it seems like you are here only for you. I don't always agree with Lou but nobody is more helpful and less product push than Lou and I mean nobody. There are many others here as well who contribute to help not with the sole intention of selling things. Now add to that the self admitted glitches we shall call them with the first offering and you think anyone should just welcome and embrace you with unquestionable loyalty? We don't know you. One thing post count does is allow us to bet to know you as a person. It lends credibility not in the way that you know more, but rather that we get to know more about you. Most don't want to take this time. I will use Josh again as an example in a good way! He blends this quite well. But if you can't take the time to get to know us, then you are not really living up to expecting such a warm welcome now are you? I have no idea about your products. May be great may not I have no idea. You can preface with "I am not calling anyone out" all you like but then when you go to criticize everyone for their behavior it is a hollow qualification at best. Step back and see it from another perspective and realize it is not just you who comes in like this. It is no harm no foul as far as I am concerned but realize there is what you are saying and what people are hearing The difference can be maddening.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, charliecheckers wrote: Exactly! Great perception. To me this is the problem of learning from courses from just magicians, or just comedians or just clowns. What I'm taking about is much greater than these types of courses and is completely adaptable to all entertainers on all levels (and actually non-entertainer conventional business owners as well. I do distinguish greatly between the two, but the overall content can be adapted to any type of performer and any type of non-entertainment business as well.) It's a combination of scope and depth. Then it is easily adaptable to your specific type of performing and even specific target markets. And while marketing is of course part of it, it involves much more getting into my operational systems. Some will get it, other won't grasp it at all, which is fine. Those that follow my posts are likely to love it. The courses will be the same content (abbreviated) as I've have been teaching in my coaching and personal mentoring, consulting and training over the past several years. Even that is always a work in progress and new ideas and concepts are tested and added as well. Glad you are getting the picture charliecheckers. It should be exciting. |
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Nick Kolenda New user 44 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: No, I don’t. I realize that respect is earned, and I was hoping to earn that respect over time. I wasn’t expecting a warm welcoming, I was just hoping for an unbiased ground on which I could build respect. And I seemed to be getting that unbiased ground. I wasn’t complaining or blaming anyone on this thread. My perception of the unwelcome community mainly stemmed from watching other people on the Café. I saw countless heated debates, accusations and criticisms toward people who weren’t even pushing products. I’m not a very confrontational person, so that type of atmosphere didn’t (and still doesn’t) appeal to me. I think there are other ways to gradually build respect besides posting on the Café. I was originally planning to post regular free content on my website in order to build trust and credibility. Once some of the content starts to circulate, I think that I would start to earn respect. I’m confident that anyone who goes through my content or products will recognize the amount of thought and detail that go into them. Will I earn respect overnight? No. I wasn’t expecting that. I realize that it’s going to be a continuous process. Luckily, I still have my youth Plus, based on Mindpro’s post, I may stick around to see if things have changed on the Café (and I’m also very excited for your course, by the way!). |
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bubbleburst2004 Veteran user 370 Posts |
This thread is hilarious. I wonder what people who have actually had a career in Mentalism think about it.
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JoshLondonMagic Special user 675 Posts |
I have no idea why my name keeps getting brought up over and over again by Mindpro.
I have contributed many great items that have helped a lot of people and will continue to do so, but at what point will I not be dragged into a thread I have no desire to be part of? I think that the course Nick is offering has a very nichey market and I wish him success and had I been given an opportunity to review the material I would have been glad to do so and offer my opinions. But, Mindpro, this needs to stop. I'm not sure what you have against me, but I am intentionally staying away from the Café because of you - and you alone. My time is so limited and despite what you may think of me being a "guru" "wannabe" or what're you'd like to call me, I am building my digital marketing agency, gaining clients, and helping lots of business owners (mainly outside magic and entertainment). I've never dodged any questions anyone asked and resent the fact that you say I dodge questions. Ask me anything - if there's one thing I think folks here can agree on is that I am honest and if I won't say it to your face I won't say it at all. I think for you, Mindpro, it's easier to live behind the screen and continue to be faceless to most. I appreciate Danny jumping in when my name was brought up - in fact Danny and I have become quite friendly and I hope to continue that. I will say, I do love to share information and have not shared my last few blog posts for fear that I will get called out by Mindpro. This Café has truly changed and instead of a part online where magicians can actually help each other they are dragged through the mud if he tries to start a new business/venture. I'm just thankful that, for the most part, I've been successful in doing so. I know this will garner a very long post from Mindpro and I just want to let it be known that I may or may not respond, due in part to I don't have time to read his long posts and (mostly) I don't care what Mindpro thinks of me or anyone else... However, the point of me posting now is to try to get Mindpro to stop bringing me up in threads. That said, Nick I truly apologize for adding this post and I hope you will forgive me. Your course looks awesome and I'd be really interested to read your ideas on keyword research for mentalists and other PPC info. Josh London Posted: Oct 13, 2014 10:12 pm Before Mindpro crafts his most excellent reply to my post, I do want to mention that I know he did not initially bring up my name, Danny did. However, Danny didn't liken me to a "wannabe." Josh
Josh
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea that one is on me I am afraid. I did it intentionally to use you as an example of what I was talking about when I needed a good example.which incidently I stand by.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JoshLondonMagic Special user 675 Posts |
No harm Danny
Josh
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kannon Inner circle BCN 1025 Posts |
I was given a copy of Showmanship for Mentalists a while ago now and highly recommend it! Great book and continual reference.
My work and the Mtangulizi here http://kannonsworks.weebly.com featuring work on drawing duplications, a fiddle-free billet tear, bar mentalism, pendulums
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Nick Kolenda New user 44 Posts |
Thanks for the kind words, Kannon. Glad you enjoyed it!
Just an update for everyone, I finished finalizing the items in my course, so everything is now available through my website: www.CareerInMentalism.com |
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wizardofsorts Special user Chicago, IL 935 Posts |
You do a trick where you reference blockbuster video?
Edd Fairman, Wizard of Sorts is a corporate magician available for your next trade show, hospitality suite, client luncheon, or company event. http://www.wizardofsorts.com
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Nick Kolenda New user 44 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2014, wizardofsorts wrote: Yep. The performance footage was filmed a few years ago (before Blockbuster went bankrupt). The routine still works with similar businesses (e.g., Barnes and Noble). |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Which are also ironically enough on their way out LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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