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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts 
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2014, AlexanderS wrote:   
Alexander, no normally thinking adult believes a magician possesses true "magical powers."
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3504 Posts
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Kabbalah wrote:
Quote:
Alexander, no normally thinking adult believes a magician possesses true "magical powers." I really wish this were true. Unfortunately a lot of people do walk away from a magic performance thinking the magician has "tapped into" something supernatural. And sadly many if not most magicians strive for this. In a misunderstanding of the term "wonder" they end up encouraging superstition. The magicians I enjoyed growing up displayed the idea that Danny mentioned. They didn't come off as wizards but as guys who knew some cool stuff. When you watched Don Allen do the cups and balls you knew you were watching a display of skill and knowledge not anything supernatural. Magicians should ask themselves this: "After my performance is my audience smarter or dumber?". |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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On Sep 23, 2014, MeetMagicMike wrote: Ya know this is the point isn't it? Treating people like children and thinking they believe you have some sort of "power" is just crazy. To encourage it has the effect of having a very small percentage think you may have "powers" and the vast majority thinking you are nothing but a joke. So often magicians wonder why they are not taken more seriously and here is a great reason. Rational people know you don't have power, and that certainly THEY don't have power. Once everyone is on the same playing field it can be more about having a good time rather than some idea of who does the magic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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AlexanderS New user Austria 16 Posts
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We should definitely not treat an audience like children and I don't think that they believe that anyone of us has true magic powers. David Berglas once said that there are no bad tricks and every trick can play equaly well with the right presentation. - With this having in mind I wrote the sentence that adults might believe in magical powers.
However I guess everyone of us has another definition for "magical powers" - for me it is just something which a laymen cannot explain by their knowledge and/or logical thinking. But Danny you are right, what really counts in the end is that everyone had a good time! Your's, Alexander |
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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2014, AlexanderS wrote: David Berglas was wrong!
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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FrankieF Veteran user So Cal 334 Posts
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I think that magicians get confused with not making the spectator the magician means you're entertaining them from afar. You can still entertain them and interact with them with out making them the magician (It's not the only method of interacting and making the spectator have fun). Also using a spectator to get rid of the heat on you can work, but in my experience when you have someone burning you no matter what you do and you still amaze and fool them the reaction is ten times stronger.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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I got very confused reading the posts here -- attempting to find some relationship to the original question. So, perhaps someone can clarify some thoughts for me.
I have written a number of eBooks based on having the spectator be the cause of the magic, and others in which an effect occurs in the spectator's hand. These are not the same! These objectives can be combined effectively, but not necessarily so. Confusion is not magic. Three questions: 1) to what degree does having the "moment of magic" occur in the spectator's hand increase the power of the magical memory? 2) to what degree does having a spectator's action be the cause of the magic enhance this experience? 3) Does having "the moment" occur in their hand and caused by their actions or that of another spectator enhance the experience? .......................................................................................... if we accept the above statement of, "what really counts in the end is that everyone had a good time!" as true (which I do not) then to what degree do any of these above questions address that result? If instead we are guided by Ammar's "30 year Principle" then are your answers different? (not to say that should be your objective either) The point is that the expectations of the performer and audience can influence the effectiveness of having spectator being directly involved in any fashion. I prefer not to be seen as the cause of the magic as a matter of style. Whether or not I shift that cause to a particular spectator is a matter of effect framing. If I choose to have a spectator handle an object it is a matter of routining.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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FrankieF Veteran user So Cal 334 Posts
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I Think my original question got lost, but what I was really trying to talk about was about tricks that have a spectator read your mind or they find your card. I wasn't talking about the magic happening in their hands that's a different subject. I wanted to see if people thought it took away from you the magician if anyone can do what you can do.
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imgic Inner circle Moved back to Midwest to see 1339 Posts
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I can think of two such routines, but both are more suited to parlor/stage settings. But maybe adaptable to hopping.
There's "cue the magic " that uses cue cards to have spectator "become" the magician and discover a selected card. John Archer has routine (déjà too I think is name. It's on his Furthering Education DVD) that has two people come up and read each other's minds.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3504 Posts
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When Uri Geller was big he often said things like "I'm not doing anything special, we all have this power" etc etc. Spoons would then bend when the spectators stroked them lightly or just concentrated.
That is just window dressing. The magician is saying he is not doing it while clearly he is. The audience understands this. No one thinks "Gee I just happened to discover this ability here at this magic show, I'm going to go home and show all my friends how I can bend a spoon with my mind". So no, it doesn't take anything away from the magician. |
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FrankieF Veteran user So Cal 334 Posts
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Thank you! I just wanted to hear somebody else's opinion on this.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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When you start to charge more than a couple hundred bucks don't you think they want you to be special? Aren't they paying for exactly that? Otherwise if you are not that big a deal what are you worth?
Being part of a heard is just not good branding. It IS about you. It IS about the experience you provide. The erroneous notion that somehow you don't have fun performing or that they enjoy it less is just goofy. Mind you many who can not command a performance feel this way. Rather than work on it it is just easier to accept it. Again is a Mac King show about anyone but him? Same with David Williamson is his performance about anyone but him? The list is ENDLESS.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts
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Danny and I "had the same mother"! I find myself in agreement with his comments just above.
The "exception can prove the rule". When I'm working for kids, I make a slight exception for one trick. I have a little boy up and I ask him to help vanish the silk (20th C Silk). He gets to hold the wand, and the silk goes "south". The audience knows that I'm just making the boy feel good! O
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3504 Posts
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Dick, that's not an exception. If I understand you, the audience knows that you did the magic not the boy. Right?
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts
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Hi Mike! Yes! I really meant that "exception proves..." line to be an exception to Danny's (and my) general rule.
Yes, they know that it's "I" --the 20th C is next to last in the 45 minute program (it plays very strong!!) and they've "seen" me "making it happen".from the beginning. Even the tiny ones "know" who the magician is! I just think that they appreciate my sharing the "spotlight" for a moment.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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David Fillary Special user 662 Posts
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Working in a heavily Islamic school in England, it is worrying how many pupils up to the age of 18 believe in real magic and ask me whether I am using "djinn" (demons).
I'm only making coins vanish and get bigger - I don't know what demon would waste his time with such trivialities 
There are many adults who I have spoken to who believe that the stuff they see on tv is supernatural. They accept card tricks as tricks, but levitaions (including haunted deck) and walking through walls etc. they believe as more. I find when speaking to people that more educated people prefer a Penn and Teller approach - they don't insult the spectator's intellect. I'm working towards that style more mainly to avoid accusations of demons etc. As to making the spectator being the magician, I do a vanish from my hand where they wave their hand over it to make it disappear and to come back. My demonstration of what they need to do does the dirty work, so the reason they do it is to misdirect from the real cause. It works well on my teenage audience, so I will try it on adults at a gig this weekend. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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On Sep 24, 2014, FrankieF wrote: OK - one of my favorite effects is "Falcon Eye" in which one spectator reads the mind of another." It is especially powerful since one "volunteer" knows the secret when it is over but never reveals anything. That is, in the 55+ years I have performed it no one has ever shared their knowledge. Instead, years later some have thanked me for the chance to be part of a miracle. The skill is in Volunteer selection rather than a "magic trick." Rather, only perform such an effect when you have the right spectator. But, I never set myself up as a performer to have any special ability - only to "make apparent" innate abilities of all humans. No one can "take away from" anything you have not claimed.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Foole4Hire New user 15 Posts
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In answer to Frank's question, if your performing persona is that of a nigh infallible expert, then a spectator having your power needs to have a context such as you transferring your power.
If you're like Geller, claiming universal power necessitates that others do the trick. Which performer are you? A mentalist/psychic channelling what we all have? A master magician of true power? Your persona holds the answer. |
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foolsnobody Special user Buffalo, NY 843 Posts
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See the Eddie Fechter book (I have Magician Nitely but it might also be in the later "The Magic of Eddie Fechter")for an wonderful effect called "You've Been Real Good to Me." Exactly what the OP was talking about.
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General_Magician Special user United States 707 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 25, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: Me personally, I just prefer to be "nothing special" and just an "average joe" who does magic. I certainly would love to command higher fees and make more money, but if I don't, it's not a big deal. Money is important, but, it's not everything. And just because you are "nothing special" doesn't mean you are a nobody. You are who you are, which in my case is William Davenport. And that's somebody, though I am not a super star in Hollywood. What's most important to me is simply the joy of performing magic. Not being a hollywood super star or making a million bucks. If I never become a big name in magic, I'm OK with that. I am not performing magic to get my 5 minutes of fame or to make a million bucks. I do it primarily because that's what I enjoy doing.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown
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Posted: Sep 23, 2014 02:26 pm 
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