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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
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On Nov 19, 2014, charliecheckers wrote: Hey charliechecks hope you’re doing okay and are safe with the terrible weather conditions out there. I have said before entertainment business is my passion and that I am into entertainment and the business of entertainment on levels much larger and deeper than 95% of performers will ever delve into. After decades of research, learning and studying everything from local level performers to major entertainment production and promotion such as concerts, touring and traveling productions, the movie and live theater facet of the industry, radio/television & media, etc. it has been a nearly lifelong project and passion. The one thing I realized is the more I got into the many aspects and areas of entertainment, the one consistent was exactly this - entertainment operates differently, many time oppositely from other traditional business. I’ve also learned from many of the best who were and some still are my mentors. The walls of my office are lined with photos from those from all areas of live entertainment and show business that taught, helped me and were my mentors. Many of these people share the same beliefs and it holds true for many facets of our business from old-time Vaudeville, comedy, magic, music to variety/novelty, movies, t.v., radio and sports, including all types of live entertainment and performing. Trust me when I say, I get into levels of this business that are quite deep and significant that would make your head spin. It’s a collective combination of all of this research and information from these many great sources that have lead to what I believe and still practice today and every day. Combine this with my second interest for decades which has been how our mind thinks, works and operates, psychology, human behaviors, (personal and in business) and of course (being a hypnotist and hypnotherapist) conscious and subconscious influence, along with pop culture, trends, consumer trends and habits, impulses, triggers, etc. - it all combines to create my beliefs, perspectives and practices today, as well as what some perceive to be blunt opinions and perspectives. I challenge anyone to try to sell a movie or t.v. treatment or a concert or live production tour the same way you would sell a pair of shoes or a candy bar. Sure you may always sell a small amount just by nature, but when you align the sales process, approach and mentality to the performance AND the targeted prospect and the exact psychological process involved, your conversions of course will be much greater and it takes it to a whole new level. Many performers feel the have to "sell" or "convince" the prospect to buy or book their services. This is similar to traditional business. I work hard to separate the approach from this greatly and appeal on a different level with a different means. I guess it's harder to understand when only getting bits and pieces which is why sometimes I'm reluctant to post some of the things I’d like to because some take it out of context thinking I’m blowing my own horn or just name dropping (in this post alone I deleted an entire paragraph with well known names and celebrities for just this reason), so I often refrain and keep it more for those I work with one on one. But you are getting the basic concept charliecheckers. I’ll release some if it some day soon hopefully which will likely bring some clarity (and for some with a thirst for more, and a few more questions likely). |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
"Normal folks"?
Oh Lord.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Danny, all the birthday moms, teachers, shop keepers, school workers , and business owners that I know are pretty normal.
Now if we talking about selling a show to some Las Vegas resort, then I’m sure there are some weird people there one must deal with. But For 99.5 percent of the people on here, I would say the customers would be normal. Wouldn’t you? Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Having the distinction at all is disturbing. It is a judgment I would never make of anyone such as women like sales. I never found it helpful to group people as such.
It causes preconceived notions and bias and is not very useful. I used to do it. I would get to a show and decide how good or bad it would be based on my perception. I was right a huge percentage of the time. But when I stopped all that and just decided to do the best possible show for the environment I started doing far more great shows. Sorry off topic but this sort of thing hurts guys more about han they know. The EEXACT same thing can happen when selling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Danny your customers are different than what we talking about here. Audience members are indeed all special.
But you don’t go out marketing to new clients, looking for someone to write a check, after every show like most here seem to do. Very few I know have a magic 'job' that they can report to each day. It's a marketing business for them. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
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It's a marketing business for them. And that's what gets me all tangled up. I just signed up to do magic shows! Instead, I have to be able to put together a cohesive branding of web, print, and copy materials to generate the correct customer perceptions of what I can do for them and how they will feel having me take care of their needs. But I'm not a web or graphics designer, and apparently I'm not much of a writer either. I don't seem to be doing well in the marketing department either. All this is great info!! I feel like I' getting a college-level business education. But it really is overwhelming. If I had a month to study through all this and give it the research it deserves, I'd probably not have so many questions. Unfortunately, I rarely have a complete weekend available. Is there any way to boil this process down into some simple steps any poor schmuck can follow? Or do we all just need to cough up the big bucks for graphics and web design and marketing and coaching help - or stay at a half-dozen calls a year? Ed |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ed you have to define your goal. Clearly stated and definable goals for your Business.
Then you need to figure out what it will take to attain those that goal. If the reward is not worth the trade off you need to reevaluate.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Wow - so much to respond to:
Mindpro - Thanks for your concern. My Family is doing fine, as we were spared the worst of the snow storms here. We had about 4 feet of snow, but other areas had more than 6 feet. I posted some pictures in The Little Darlings section yesterday. I am currently reading Entrepreneural StrengthsFinder. The book starts out as follows: 'Dead Wrong Economic Assumptions' - "During my 40 years at Gallup, Ive observed that when very talented leaders fail, it's often because their thinking failed them. Not their management or leadership skills, but their thinking about a core belief that they put at the center of all of their strategies. Because they are so wrong about that core belief, every subsequent decision actually makes things worse, because every decision is tied to that belief. The mmore they manage and lead, the worse things get." Jim Clifton As I read this, what Mindpro speaks of came to mind. It is not enough just to apply the same basic principles to every situation. Jim Clifton goes on to point out stark examples of this as it relates to the fast food industry and government. Quote:
I challenge anyone to try to sell a movie or t.v. treatment or a concert or live production tour the same way you would sell a pair of shoes or a candy bar. Sure you may always sell a small amount just by nature, but when you align the sales process, approach and mentality to the performance AND the targeted prospect and the exact psychological process involved, your conversions of course will be much greater and it takes it to a whole new level. Many performers feel the have to "sell" or "convince" the prospect to buy or book their services. This is similar to traditional business. I work hard to separate the approach from this greatly and appeal on a different level with a different means. What Mindpro speaks of above is what I believe the writer of Entrepreneural Strengthsfinder was writing about. If one starts out with the wrong premise, everything that follows will be less than optimal. Danny - I think the discussion you and Tom are having is central to this thread. I do not necessarily agree with your perspective, as I know businesses do a ton of research to determine purchasing patterns based upon demographics. Regardless, your discussion point is important to discuss when considering what may be holding us back. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
As we're learning more about your situation and perspective, it makes me wonder - why do you want to do shows? I mean this seriously. I know you seem to enjoy them and performing, but why or what do you want out of it? There are many reasons we perform or become performers. Perhaps the advice and information we're offering you isn't appropriate for your wants and interests?
Most seem to follow a typical path - they start in magic for fun and enjoy what they learn and can do. "Perform" for family and friends and it becomes their hobby. Some leave it and come back, others seem to keep it on some level as they grow. At this point there seems to be a fork in the road. Some just want to keep doing it for fun and personal enjoyment, and others begin to think about doing shows and making money from their magic. Yet others fantasize about it being their living or profession. My reason for asking is if you are only doing it for personal fun and enjoyment, then no, none of this business stuff needs to really comes into play. Offer your services for free to kids hospitals, shelters and community groups. However, to me it seemed like you wanted more after you referred to only getting six calls last year. It seemed as if you wanted more and were interested in stepping it up to be more. If that's the case then there are things you would need to do to get those desired results. Most of your posts all seem to be only from your perspective - what you think, what you want, what bothers, you, what is overwhelming to you and your time restrictions. Of course this matters to each of us, but when you are interested in selling your services to others, your focus must shift to the customer's wants, needs, interests, and concerns. It must all be a choice - your choice. There is a level of responsibility that comes with doing shows for pay, and that responsibility exceeds just to yourself. The minute others are trusting you with the success of their son/daughter's party, a school trusting you with their students and faculty, and a company with their event to their employees and guests, it is all elevated to another level. A professional level. And with "professional" comes certain obligations and expectations. If you're only looking for a few more bookings, then some of your efforts may suffice. Get a basic website (basic still means with the proper content that the customer needs and expects) and put up some fliers abound town, an ad on craigslist and hope for the best. You're likely to pick you a few things here and there. At your performances make sure you hand out business cards and sell from the stage to plant the idea you are available for others events as well. You shouldn't have great expectations, but as I said you're likely to get a couple of bookings here and there. Just remember at this level you will always only be "just another magician" within your community or performance area. There is no positioning, branding, etc. As for your "I have to be able to put together a cohesive branding of web, print, and copy materials to generate the correct customer perceptions of what I can do for them and how they will feel having me take care of their needs. But I'm not a web or graphics designer, and apparently I'm not much of a writer either. I don't seem to be doing well in the marketing department either", welcome to reality. The truth is most performers are none of the things you just mentioned. None of have these abilities, they are learned as part of our individual process. We learn business just as we learned the magic. However, all of these things are 100% easier today than they have ever been. You can create a one-sheet in a couple of hours for free, when previously you had to sketch your ideas and designs out, take it to a graphics person, a typesetter and a printer, wait a few days to a week for a proof, make corrections, wait for a second proof, then a few more days for printing and it it would take a couple of weeks and $200-$600 for a one page promotional piece. Today this can be done at home in your underwear at the kitchen table....for free! There are ways to learn how to do these things or with a phone call or click of a mouse you can outsource these things so easily it really becomes a non-factor. We all must invest in ourselves and our businesses. Do it right once and it can serve you for years, with perhaps only simple updating occasionally if you are operating on this basic level. Your fear seems to make it much more monumental than it really is. In the several weeks you've been posting in this thread your web page could have been corrected and revised and you could have created a companion one sheet and you would have enough to start. With these alone, deciding what you choose to do with them and your desired calls to action and outline your are seeking, you could have bookings coming in now for the holiday season by now. I see "Analysis Paralysis" holding up and preventing many from moving forward. Don't feel like you need to master all facets of everything to start the ball rolling. I am a huge proponent of doing it right the first time as it will better serve you and your time for the long haul, but if you're looking for something quick and affordable to get going, there are solutions available. I get the feeling you put more efforts in trying to figure out a way to cut corners, that it would take to learn or outsource some of this. If you're not a good copy writer, outsource to someone that is. If you can't design business cards, there are plenty of resources than can. All you have to do as I've said before is in your mind (and preferably on paper) decide your goals and some foundational decisions and create what it is you want to achieve. Then take this to your outsourcers, clearly state your ideas and objectives and let them do what they do best for you. I know there are many here that offer these services themselves. Never copy another entertainers info, but you can visit others site for ideas, formatting, calls t action, loks, feels, flow, etc. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
Sorry I was writing the previous post while charlicheckers had posted. Although I'm not good about wanting to go back and finding the previous posts about it, this is exactly what I meant when I referred to addressing and answering the proper foundational questions in the beginning of establishing your business with clearly defined goals and objectives. By addressing and answering these crucial foundational questions everything you then do following this is based on the exact and precise goals and objectives you desire, they are much more concentrated and focused on your exact needs and interests. If you view and approach these important foundational elements as you go along through the process or if you fail to establish them properly from the beginning, EVERYTHING you do from that point on as you provided will likely be incorrect, ineffective and set you up for less than desired results or complete failure.
Everyone is is such a hurry to get to the "good stuff" (having fun performing and the making of money) that they disregard or just gloss over the important foundation elements. Along with missing these foundational decisions and answers, most performers then proceed without an business operational system specifically designed to create and execute these desired elements and create the process of implementation. So between not starting out by addressing these crucial questions and decision and then not having a system in place to execute it, how do you really think you stand a chance of succeeding? How do you really think that marketing this mismosh of disarray will work for you? To me it's obvious and plain as day, but for some reasons others fail to see this. Yet the minute I start working with someone on these exact elements, you see their lightbulb go off and they see it plain as day. chearliecheckers, I'm not sure what you're doing or where you're going with your business, but you seem to be absorbing and understanding so much of this that it can only help your performing business (and although it's an another subject entirely, this greatly help your actual performance as well) in whatever capacity as you move forward. This is also why this context works exactly the same for part-time performers as well as full-timers. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Ed, if you get ready to sell your props let me know.
Hey that was a joke. LOL Have you thought about finding a party place or restaurant to work one day a week and market your shows from there? Have you done that? Can’t remember if you said or not. That way your site can serve mainly as a business card. Very hard to sell yourself with just a site anyway. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Very true Tom.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
I'm not ready to sell my props, domains, or tiny customer list. I'm asking questions and sharing thoughts and confusions out of a sincere desire to make this work. I'm also operating on the assumption that if I ever had or currently do have these frustrations and confusions, then others do also. Mindpro started this whole shebang off by stating he gets PMs and emails asking these same basic questions over and over. And as long as y'all are willing to answer, I'll keep asking (since it looks like I'm the elected one!) - if for no other reason than to get the information out here for all to see and read now and for the future.
For me, this is coming at the perfect time. I am working my way through a total re-think of my entire business approach, such as it is. Why do I perform? And why wrap a business around it? Those questions look completely different now than they did five years ago. And they deserve better answers now than I had back then. To that end, I've been reading a lot and talking to others. This is part of that. Here's one set of questions I've come up with to drive my processes: -- What does the customer want? -- What can I tell them to expect from me to satisfy that want? -- How can I deliver that so they are excited to get it? -- What is preventing me from attaining that delivery? -- Am I willing and able to attain that delivery? -- If not, what adjustments do I need to make in my offerings to give the customer more reasonable expectations? Mixed in with this are the realizations that I can generalize - birthdays, school assemblies, etc - or I can get real specific - six-year-old birthdays are different from ten-year-old birthdays, and I'm not real sure on how broad or narrow to scope everything. Wanting to do something and even having a good idea about the process doesn't always lead to excellent implementation! Gotta run. I'll be back! Ed |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Okay - part II.
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By addressing and answering these crucial foundational questions everything you then do following this is based on the exact and precise goals and objectives you desire, they are much more concentrated and focused on your exact needs and interests. If you view and approach these important foundational elements as you go along through the process or if you fail to establish them properly from the beginning, EVERYTHING you do from that point on as you provided will likely be incorrect, ineffective and set you up for less than desired results or complete failure. Exactly!! Yes, I failed to clearly delineate my business directions in the beginnings and failed to make adjustments along the way. I knew what *I* wanted to do and who I wanted to buy this stuff. But I did not examine who the customer is and what the customer wants, and what I might be able to create to satisfy the customer's desires. I did appraoch everything from my own viewpoint and not the that of the customer. Quite naturally, that disconnect alone results in poor sales. Add in to that the lack of understanding about proper marketing, and the phone might ring purely by chance a half-dozen times in a year. My original thoughts a few years back were to: -- Get established in the birthday party aspect, because that was probably the easiest to get into and the most plentiful work available. -- Work those contacts and successes to get into to more lucrative school and library markets. -- By the time I'm ready to retire from my day job (was about 5-7 years from now; more like 10-12 years in the current economy!!), I'll let the young upstarts have the birthdays and I'll keep the higher-paying markets that I am "by now" well-established in. That sounds a lot like the fantasies a high school kid has about his no-hitch career after college to retirement! Enter real lif - stage left! (Again, I'm offering myself as a "test case" (maybe "worst case"!). Please continue to speak to all entry-level readers - even those stuck at that level after several years. But I will also take anything specific to my situation and run with it! Also, my day job has had me up against a wall for thast few weeks - I program spreadsheets and databases and we have a major system change coming soon, so I've had my head stuck in three computers at the same time for days. I'm afraid the tiredness and frustration has crept into my postings here.) Why do I perform shows? Because I enjoy it. Because I want to make money. Within the last year, though, I've also discovered that I have the opportunity to make a difference. And that has started changing everything. A friend is a teacher, and he's invited me into his middle school classroom a few times. With a group that size, I can do three tricks and capture their attention (well, the ones that are willing to pay attention, anyway). And with that attention, I can give them words that just might be the seeds of something better than the stuff in their heads. I tried it on a larger scale - had about 100-120 kids in one room - and it was near unworkable at my current skill level, but the potential was enticing and addicting! I've also gone into hospital and nursing home rooms to "share a smile", and had a blast!! Some of these people haven't seen anything but IVs and TVs for days. That smile hasn't been on them for way too long, and I did that! Okay, I probably have enough thoughts and experience to refine my performance objectives. And I've got a decent handle on my performance abilities. So I know what kind of product I can offer. Some people can see a niche and create something to fill it, and I've done that with other things. Here, though, I have to be aware of my capabilities, or I will wind up making promises to potential clients that I can't deliver. My next step, as far as I can see, should be to go back and forth between my products and the markets to find out the best market niche available and the best product I have to fit that. That will require getting to know the customer better than I do now and then crafting a presentation that shows how their need is satisfied by my product. Rinse and repeat for each market I want: birthdays, school assemblies, school or other group "family nights", libraries, and eventually mentalism. All that is great thought, and really basic stuff that I didn't grasp in the beginning. But now that I'm here, there remains the practical side of implementation. How do you get into a customer's head? How do you design a marketing "brand" that presents your answer to the customer's needs? How do you work separate markets side-by-side, yet separate? What is this "system" Mindpro keeps harping on that will let a busy person take full advantage of every opportunity? I've read a lot here, in books, and on blogs, but there's a lot that just didn't seem to find a place to stick. (I get that - I talk to a lot of very smart people whose eyes glaze over when I start explaining spreadsheets!) I know there's some stuff that just won't make sense until there's a place to put it - pedals and handlebars make no sense without a bicycle frame. But reading, listening, and thinking through all this glut of information and trying to distill this overload into a few key beginning points is overwhelming. It's easier to play a game on my phone! Tom's question about finding a restaraunt or party place is valid, and I've tried both. I don't do well at restaraunts because I don't do close-up, so I don't make an impression that sells. (Nerve problems make learning sleights difficult; stand-up is much easier.) And we really don't have a "party place" here that doesn't already have more noisy and flashy stuff than I can compete with. CharlieCheckers: You guys appear to have done very well. What kind of thought process did you go through? How did you implement the beginnings? How did you adjust as time went on? What kind of systems do you have in place? Ed |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Ed - first of all I must say - I loved your post. I was actually thinking of some of the same things you were today. I was replaying Lou's post in my mind. The one where he discussed the vast differences in watch prices, while quality differences can be perceived to be narrow or wide. It made me think, how well do each of us know the quality of the product we are selling? This might be the best place to start, because this will tell us where to market and is critical in setting up a business model. Imagine thinking you are selling a Rolex and in reality it is a Timex. I think it is even more difficult to know our product in this business. It was interesting to read your post that also discussed this topic.
To answer your question: I started out with no clue what I was doing. My plan was to try to get some birthday parties, charging minimal prices. I just wanted to gain some real business experience. I was not super into magic or anything, I was just trying to come up with an alternative to typical teenage summer jobs. The entertainment business was actually my third attempted venture. I was fortunate in that I had exposure to Adobe and basic skills at video editing and website construction. My first marketing attempt was to distribute postcard size photos to every place families went where community boards were available. I also distributed over 2,000 postcards to families with small children at Fourth of July Firework displays and parades. To this day, I do not know of one single booking I received from any of this activity. Why? They were not in the market to hire an entertainer at the time I approached them and they had never heard of us. I had constructed our show to really play for larger audiences any way, so I began to focus on markets that typically hire entertainment on a somewhat regular basis. Scouts, Libraries, Country Clubs. Now I had learned enough to know that I could charge way more than my initial perception when birthday parties were my focus.I personally visited with as many of those later types of clients that I could. I provided specific information related to how I could assist them, our website and a follow up thank you. I was surprised at how many booked us almost right away. Maybe 5 or 6, but to me it was huge. Best of all, once I landed my first few libraries, word spread to other libraries like crazy. They remembered my visit and were now hearing from fellow librarians about us. Along the way I was reading tons on The Magic Café about performing for kids and the business of magic. I was exposed to a vast world of information. Much of the information I was able to directly use to augment what I was doing. I purchased James Munton's course, Tom's Daycare book, unique props , and several ebooks from members I became familiar with The Great Zucchini had posted an open invite to anyone on TMC who wanted to attend one of his shows and hang out with him - for free. I took him up on that offer and my brother and I drove 7 hours to do just that. It was incredible. We have been back several times as well. Reading Mindpro's often lengthy posts on business concepts sticks with me. They provide intrigue for me. Why? I think because I am a full time student with no reason to have an ego, so I am here to learn. My curriculum at school demands me to be adept at a wide range of approaches. His happens to appeal to me. Things continue to grow, but I still feel like I hardly know anything. When Mindpro, Danny, Lou, David Thiel, and many others get on here, I feel like I have to sprint just to be close enough to them to hear what they are saying for a short while, until I can no longer keep up at all. Learning is a passion of mine and what keeps me going. Unfortunately, like many part timers, I have to limit the time I spend on my business. Fortunately, I can pick and choose how I spend that time because I do not currently have a family to provide for. I find participating in discussions here to be a great use of my time. It allows me to pressure test my thoughts. Hope some of this helps. |
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