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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » APPS-alutely » » An important discussion as apps for mentalism move forward (PLEASE READ) (94 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Tim Cavendish
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Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
Tim I cannot believe what I am reading. So anyone who does not protect their ideas can expect and accept others to use their ideas without any problem? Did I just read that right?


No, you did not read it correctly. Read it again. I am saying that you want even more benefits for yourself than the law gives to people who pursue offical trade secret or patent protection. Those legal protections require balancing tradeoffs that you refuse to give: either not selling your method, or immediately publishing it for the world to see and eventually giving up any control of it.
Angelo Carbone
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But my point is who in the magic world protects their magic the legal way eg patents? Very very few. Magic intellectual copyright is different. Like I said there would be so much little new releases if we all had to protect our products the legal way. Instead we work together to credit, pay royalties or other. That's how it has has always been.

I feel I am on my own here fighting for the voice of creators.
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
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Exitmat
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Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
John you say you have a lot of respect for me and yet you have no respect for my wishes so how is that showing respect?

You can have respect for someone and disagree with them. The two are not equatable. I'm surprised that has to be spelled out for you. I think it's obvious John has respect for you as, according to what you said, he came to you privately to discuss the issue and opened up the topic for discussion here without mentioning you by name at all. You were the one that came here and told the specifics. You're really coming across as someone who feels very entitled.

Quote:
Do you know who understands us? Only other creators...

I'm biting my tongue here... That's like saying the only people who can critique a film are filmmakers. Or the only people who have a valid opinion on literature are authors. I can't even put into words how absurd that is.

Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:I feel I am on my own here fighting for the voice of creators.

It probably feels that way because you aren't recognizing that you are fighting for only your twisted views as a creator. Clearly several creators disagree with you here, so this is not the case. Perhaps instead of making a blanket claim like this you should objectively look into the nuances of this discussion.

Quote:
It should be all about respect. There never was a brotherhood in this magic world. I am so angry right now I better stop. Its no wonder why magicians want to stop creating with this sort of mentality out there and then who loses out?

I have found a fantastic brotherhood in the magic world. But then again I obviously do not share many of your philosophies, so it only makes sense my personal experience has been quite different than yours. Magicians do not want to stop creating. The only one that seems to want that, reading your posts in this thread, is you.

If what you're upset about here is the passcode lockscreen input of your app being used by other potential app builders, I think you need to get over yourself and recognize that all you have done is simply duplicate something that is already part of the core functionality of the phone already (same as swipes, dimming screens, phone flips, etc.). That's not something original, dude. You're just ringing in a fake. That's like saying switching a regular quarter for a gimmicked quarter is an original idea. You stumbled upon what is a very good, yet obvious, method for inputting information into the phone and built your app first. Congratulations. You should be credited for being the first to use the idea. And that's it. I suggest checking your ego and getting out of the way of other creators now with what is a very trivial claim of creation.
John Born
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Hi Angelo -

I do have respect for you as a creator. This does not mean that you have correctly assessed the situation as a creator, nor does it mean that I have to agree with you. You are fighting alone, or along a select few, because there is no logic in your argument with regard to the specific points that I am making. This is not just about you. I would extend the points I and others made about input options to all of the developers in app magic.

If someone was considering putting together an app that can text me a playing card, or really any other customizable message, I would be right there with you to say that Ipredict Pro and Magic SMS have that nicely covered, are excellent tools to accomplish that, and that the community should and would come together to help protect your offering. But this is not what this thread is about. It is about the ability to take advantage of general input methods to achieve a variety of different effects, all of which cannot be achieved by what you designed, or are planning to design, for the community.

JB
Angelo Carbone
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Its not about ego. Its about protecting one's work. You say there is a brotherhood? You must have missed all the posts on here with disputes, arguments, fallouts, Teller being ripped off, dealers ripping off, youtube exposure, SOM forum etc etc. Oh yes a wonderful brotherhood!
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
magicmarcuk
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I have developed several iPhone magic apps on the App Store. One of my apps in particular originally used a very clever input method that was devised by another magician who I paid and credited as I felt I should. However, the app was rejected by Apple as the input method violated Apple's iOS app terms and conditions.
I, like you John, felt that there were no other input methods available to me for my app except for one. But, after a brainstorming session with a friend, we came up with a completely new method of input that works great for my app, one that I feel is even better than the original.

It's very easy to say that there are only a finite number of ways to achieve something, but sometimes a bespoke method can be created to achieve the same goal and perhaps even be better.

A question: What if one were to use another's input method for their own purposes but with a bad implementation? The copied app could be poorly structured in effect, or even built by a less able developer that makes the input somewhat obvious to a lay audience. This would mean the original effect would likely be unperformable to the same audience, or even exposed. The original developer has probably spent a lot of time and attention on the nuances of the input method to ensure all is as convincing as possible. Any app that tries to recreate this method is absolutely at risk of exposing the original effect.

Note that a card trick that instructs the magician to "do a double lift" relies solely on the performer to convincingly do so, yet an app's believability also relies on its developer. Surely the original effect's creator should have some say?

Another thing: I saw "using a pebble" listed a few times in this thread as an input method, however I feel this is a little vague. Saying "we have a select few ways" and listing the Pebble as one of these few ways is unclear: my app allows the user to use a Pebble as an input, but in two completely different ways. In one way, whilst original, I would not be too bothered if another magician were to use in their own app. The other method that uses the Pebble I feel is extremely novel, and I would be very disappointed if another magician were to recreate it for their own app without my permission. Whilst the effect is all the spectator experiences, most of my development time and money was spent inventing and refining this very input method which I absolutely wish to stay unique to me.

I also have many future plans for my app as well as future effects that will use the same input method that I've already developed. If another magician were to use my input method for another effect without my permission, it's very likely that they would be overlapping with what I have in development. Checking with an effect's creator and respecting his decision I feel is highly important. As a modern example, how would we feel if a new effect was released tomorrow that used Sean Field's Hidden Hand as its method? Magicians would purchase the effect and find the same contents one receives with the HH but with a different DVD explaining another effect. Would this be OK?

Perhaps a difference is that Hidden Hand is sold as a tool; it's sold to magicians to be applied to multiple effects and routines. But even when purchasing a single marketed effect, we don't automatically get permission to resell the method as a new effect. Moves taught and items provided in Dean Dill's Blizzard, for example, have applications in many other effects (which magicians are free to perform if owning the original), yet it would surely be wrong to repackage and resell this method yourself as another effect without Dill's permission.

Maybe a solution would be for magicians to sell the code for their apps' input methods to other magicians as a tool for whatever effect they deem fit, but NOT for mass resale. Maybe magic apps should somehow be sold as tools rather than effects, with their routines and reveals customisable by the purchaser. This is of course much harder to accomplish than with physical products, so perhaps the best solution would be to propose a new effect to the creator of a digital method and see if a deal can be made, and if it can't, their decision should be respected.

And my last question: Who's to judge how simple a method is? It's difficult as great methods often seem simple in hindsight. I believe Angelo's Magic SMS was originally released in 2010 for iOS 4, at which time there were plenty of other magic apps available, yet none had thought to use Angelo's input method. Dismissing something as obvious is extremely easy to do in hindsight.
Hello! I make magic apps, such as WikiTest, Earworm, Xeno and WebFX.
Badger
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Angelo,

I have always been a big fan of John born going back to his DVDs from years and years ago so everything he has put out Has been nothing but pure jams and also has boosted my own creativity. So there for when he says he's coming out with an app I am very excited about it John born is one of the few creators who I admireand respectboth for his really cool skills and creativity. I wish there were more like him.
Tom Cutts
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John, it really looks like you knew the right thing to do, did it, but when you didn't get the answer you wanted you came here with vague, misleading, inaccurate statements to drum up support for disrespecting the wishes of the person who first created this idea. And now you are trying to smear the person who came here to shine the light of detail on your vague charade.

We are indeed not talking about taps and swipes. Shame on ou for misleading folks so. We are talking about using a specially designed and modified screen which someone else came up with before you. I'd guess you probably knew about it before you decided to use it in your app, but that's my own conjecture.

Here is the crux. The act of giving is that of the person who first owns a thing. The taking of something because you think it to be obvious is still theft.

I have a strong suspicion that Apple will reject your app for appropriating part of another app without permission. Yes, they are rather strict about that when they find it.
Exitmat
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Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Tom Cutts wrote:
John, it really looks like you knew the right thing to do, did it, but when you didn't get the answer you wanted you came here with vague, misleading, inaccurate statements to drum up support for disrespecting the wishes of the person who first created this idea. And now you are trying to smear the person who came here to shine the light of detail on your vague charade.

We are indeed not talking about taps and swipes. Shame on ou for misleading folks so. We are talking about using a specially designed and modified screen which someone else came up with before you. I'd guess you probably knew about it before you decided to use it in your app, but that's my own conjecture.

Here is the crux. The act of giving is that of the person who first owns a thing. The taking of something because you think it to be obvious is still theft.

I have a strong suspicion that Apple will reject your app for appropriating part of another app without permission. Yes, they are rather strict about that when they find it.


First off, "the right thing" is subjective, so let's get down off the high horse and stick to discussing this issue at eye level. That's the point of this thread. Also, I think John has initiated conversation on this topic as cordially to anyone invested in it as he could have. It would have been disrespectful to start calling out names of people who didn't want to be part of the discussion. So he initiated discussion on the topic itself, without being personal about it, to get overall objective feedback from the community. To condemn that approach to the topic is nothing short of dismissively silly. Also, who did John "smear" and what is the "charade" is going on? Those are quite dramatic and accusatory words you're throwing around there, and reading through this thread, I don't see any evidence at all to support them. So how about we holster those pistols until there's enough evidence to fire off those shots, cowboy? (You wouldn't want to shoot yourself in the foot, you know...)

Everything you're saying is debatable, which is why I think this discussion has come to be. You say someone "owns" the idea of a dummy lock screen, and that implementing the same idea in another app is "theft". I totally disagree. As do many others apparently. And that's what we're discussing here. So clearly it's something worthy of discussion.

So how about we support our claims instead of just throwing out vague accusations without evidence? You seem way too eager to attack someones character rather than the argument itself, and to misrepresent and exaggerate someone's argument to make them easier to attack. How about we go back to discussing this topic the good ole fashioned way: making a non-emotional or personal statement on the topic at hand and then supporting it with evidence? You know: like John Born did when he started this thread.
IAIN
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I think if someone first came up with the idea of a dummy lock screen in a certain way, yes - that would make them the creator/owner of that idea... if people wanted to use his/her method - then they'd need permission...if they come up with an alternative way, then a credit would be fair...
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Tom Cutts
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First off, you can't offer holstering pistols while shooting yours off in the library. Your language choice is every bit what you are complaining about.

Second off, you can justify theft all you want. It is the badge of entitlement.

Third off, it would have been entirely possible to, without naming names or apps, say:

"I would like to use a dummy screen which someone else thought of, developed, and implemented before me, but when I asked that person to use this they said "no". Can I use it anyway?"

Instead we get inaccurate "information" which certainly appears on its surface to be purposely spun to gain support. THAT is the charade.
Angelo Carbone
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On Oct 27, 2014, Exitmat wrote:

Clearly several creators disagree with you here


Who are these "creators" who disagree with me? I don't mind if they do but would like to know who they are unless you are just making it up. You can't just make a statement like that. Several is more than two and more than a few. I listed three names that feel the same way as I do about their inputs in their apps. There could be more but I haven't spoken to them about it.
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
Exitmat
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Tom Cutts wrote:
First off, you can't offer holstering pistols while shooting yours off in the library. Your language choice is every bit what you are complaining about.

There you go deflecting again. Nice.

Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Tom Cutts wrote:Second off, you can justify theft all you want. It is the badge of entitlement.

Again, theft/creation/rights/etc. is subjective. That's why we're discussing it. Please reference the words FACT and OPINION and compare and contrast them, then come back to this discussion.

Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Tom Cutts wrote:
...it would have been entirely possible to, without naming names or apps, say:

"I would like to use a dummy screen which someone else thought of, developed, and implemented before me, but when I asked that person to use this they said "no". Can I use it anyway?"

Instead we get inaccurate "information" which certainly appears on its surface to be purposely spun to gain support. THAT is the charade.

That wasn't the point of the thread. There: I just spelled it out for you. You're welcome.

Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Exitmat wrote:

Clearly several creators disagree with you here


Who are these "creators" who disagree with me? I don't mind if they do but would like to know who they are unless you are just making it up. You can't just make a statement like that. Several is more than two and more than a few. I listed three names that feel the same way as I do about their inputs in their apps. There could be more but I haven't spoken to them about it.

Read this thread. You're capable of that. As for any others who haven't posted here, it's not my place to name names.
John Born
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Tom, thanks for your thoughts. However, I am completely confused how anything I said was vague, misleading, or inaccurate. I explained EXACTLY what I was working with, once asked, I provided the SPECIFIC method I created to achieve my effect that was being questioned, and without any room for misinterpretation, PRECISELY detailed my thoughts on the matter in a cordial and organized way. But in case you missed any of it, it is there for you to read again. Enjoy.

I have literally no reason whatsoever to "steal" from any creator. Anyone who has any insight whatsoever on the kind of things I work on for my personal use knows that I easily develop and throw away material every day that is much deeper and smarter than anything that has been discussed on this thread. Any accusations of "direct borrowing" while I state otherwise is not even a consideration. But I do understand where you are coming from. When you don't have a logical standpoint, might as well try to shoot darts at my character. If anything, that just gives us a little insight about you.

AND NOW, TO BRING THINGS FULL CIRCLE...

Want to know my favorite part of all of this? Before I even started this thread, I already had two methods worked out that are better than the one I had asked Angelo about. After all, having the spectator put in a passcode really kind of gives a spectator something strong to lean on for potential method once looking back at possible methods, and I wanted to avoid any and all chance for that. I guess you can say this is my interesting revelation at the end of this routine. I wasn't even going to bring up Angelo or the method we discussed in private, but he appeared along with a couple backup singers and wanted to talk specifics with regard to him, so I let them whine and rant, and now you have my thoughts.

The real reason that I put all of this together is because 1) The topic is important, as others have had the same issue. I was a bit horrified that app developers think they can deny others from using such basic approaches, and so getting the community to express their viewpoint on what is a general tool is important as this medium matures. Great to see most have their heads on straight. 2) Has been a long time since I visited themagiccafe. Interesting to see that things are still the same, and how quickly accusations of stealing start to fly, regardless of a reputation as a legit and forthright creator, and how simple the idea at hand may be 3) How I had a gut feeling that even if the magic community agreed with my logical position, the few people that wanted the app monopoly would quickly appear, not have a leg to stand on, and come across as petty children. Turned out to be like sharks on chum. Entertaining boys, thank you for your time, and for allowing me to make all three points in a direct and jovial manner. Sometimes I like to have a bit of fun with those that have a skewed perspective, and a few of you have made quite the nice playtoys.

Enjoy "your" methods.

John Born
Angelo Carbone
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Exitmat, thanks for your patronising "Read this thread. You're capable of that."

You said "creators" disagree with me not just other forum members. That's my point. Just by seeing other people post on here disagreeing, doesn't make them "creators" as you said. So please don't generalise and make assumptions that creators disagree with me if a) you don't know and b) you can't prove it.

Merci beaucoup!
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
Angelo Carbone
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On Oct 28, 2014, John Born wrote:
However, I am completely confused how anything I said was vague, misleading, or inaccurate.


You say "demand residuals" when I never asked you for money.
You use the word "we" a lot to give your complaint more weight and support when in fact it seems only you have the problem. No one has complained to me in four years since my app has been out.
You contradict yourself when saying "we are being threatened into using inferior methods" and yet in your above post you say "Before I even started this thread, I already had two methods worked out that are better than the one I had asked about". So even before starting this thread you had better methods all along and yet you were threatened to use inferior methods???

Quote:
Want to know my favorite part of all of this? Before I even started this thread, I already had two methods worked out that are better than the one I had asked Angelo about.


Ok serious question. Can I use your methods in other apps please?

Quote:
I had a gut feeling that even if the magic community agreed with my logical position, the few people that wanted the app monopoly would quickly appear, not have a leg to stand on, and come across as petty children. Turned out to be like sharks on chum. Entertaining boys, thank you for your time, and for allowing me to make all three points in a direct and jovial manner. Sometimes I like to have a bit of fun with those that have a skewed perspective, and a few of you have made quite the nice playtoys.

Enjoy "your" methods.


Do you realise how that makes you look? If you don't then poor you.
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
John Born
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Quote:
You say "demand residuals" when I never asked you for money.


Once again, you think this is all about you.

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serious question. Can I use your methods in other apps please?


Absolutely - I am using general input methods. As long as you do not duplicate my effect, have at it boss.

Quote:
Do you realize how that makes you look? If you don't then poor you.


The bottom line is you are out of your league here. Yes, I made a bit of an example out of you. Hook, line, and sinker. Poor you. I have made all of the points I wanted to make. Feel free to keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.

JB
Angelo Carbone
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Wow!
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
Exitmat
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
Exitmat, thanks for your patronising "Read this thread. You're capable of that."

You said "creators" disagree with me not just other forum members. That's my point. Just by seeing other people post on here disagreeing, doesn't make them "creators" as you said. So please don't generalise and make assumptions that creators disagree with me if a) you don't know and b) you can't prove it.

Merci beaucoup!

First, it is not for me to reveal someone's name behind their handle.

Second, just because YOU don't know someone's name does not mean they haven't created some fantastic stuff.

Also, you are laying the burden of proof on ME when it is YOU questioning the claim. If you don't know who the people replying on this thread are, then stop being lazy and do your own research and homework and answer the question for yourself. Or don't; I really don't care. You seem to be hung up on thinking a discussion is about winning a popularity contest when really it's a small point in passing on what this whole discussion is really about: it's about you thinking that a stupid fake lock screen is something you "created". How many apps are there on tying knots? Or voice recognition singing apps? Or guitar tuning apps? Or picture editing apps? Or apps that stream music or podcasts? Nobody "created" these things. People are just finding ways to make use of the technology already available on the platform given. You didn't "create" a fake lock screen, dude: you, like some others, stumbled upon one way to use the technology that was already in your hands. You didn't create the iPhone. In essence, you were just the first to publish the idea of switching a real quarter for a gimmicked quarter for a coin in bottle effect, and now you think you have the right to ban anyone from switching a real penny for a gimmicked penny so that they can do a bent penny effect.

Get over yourself already. And consider yourself fortunate when the day comes that someone out there comes out with an app with a fake lock screen input that they credit you for being the first to implement the idea.
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You are a very nice person aren't you.

You are saying I am the lazy one for not researching who is who and yet you were the one to assume who were creators without checking your facts.

I see.

Lovely people on here. What a wonderful "brotherhood"! Smile
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
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