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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts |
Professional Behavior Here at Magic Café - My Decision
In the business world there is a professional way of communicating that I feel is often lost here on the Café. Some communication on the Café makes me wonder - would you communicate with your clients in this way? I recently watched Danny Orleans dvd on Kids Magic and he teaches a skill I decided to use here on the Café. It is a type of conditioning to increase the likelihood that the children behave. Briefly, if a child is misbehaving, speaking out of turn, not sitting still, etc - that child is ignored and instead a child who IS exemplifying good behavior is complimented and called to help with the magic. Here on the Café I am interested in constructive interactions. I am ok with criticism, as long as it is constructive and respectful. I believe it is good to preserve someone else's dignity. So I decided that here on the Café I will implement this style of communicating. If someone is destructive, they are ignored. I am interested in communicating with people who make valuable contributions, not with those who tear down. I'm not interested in defending myself or arguing. I have better ways to spend my energy than feeling upset about a post on a forum. Some examples I look to for good behavior on the Café are Jamie D Grant and Lou Serrano. They are both very experienced and make constructive posts, they don't tear down nor are they condescending although they could easily get away with it because of their extensive experience. Eugene Burger said it best (paraphrase) - "the problem with Internet forums is whoever is the loudmouth has as much status as Dai Vernon." I would like to be a part of this community and I feel it is important to be proactive in how I communicate and how I tolerate the communication of others. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Fact is there is a HUGE difference in the way you communicate with a client, and how you communicate in this place.
Also it is true that criticism is neither "constructive" or "destructive" it is simply what it is. The way YOU hear it is an issue for yourself, not one for someone who says it. THAT is allowing that it is actually criticism, and not someone just making noise. There is a difference. If you do not like the way advice is offered (For free I hasten to add.) then as you say you have the absolute right to ignore it and not interact. I like that you have framed this as how "you" are going to act, and not how you expect "others" to act. That is cool. Here is where you will run into problems. There are some ideas that are just flat out bad. They NEED to be called such. It is what it is. The truth is the truth and to sugar coat it is not something many want to bother with. Yes your quote from Eugene makes a lot of sense. Just because someone offers something in a way you do not like, does it mean that it is wrong? As I said you framed this as how YOU are choosing to act, and that is really cool. But does being offended make a person right? Would you intentionally not interact with someone who has information that is obviously correct and not gain that information just because of how it is presented? I for one would not do such a thing, I am curious as to if this is what you mean? As for the Eugene quote what he is saying is that if you have to start your post with "I never did restaurant magic but I think..." then perhaps you should not post the thought. Does every idea have merit? Does every idea from every inexperienced kid need to be considered and waded through? At times this amounts to doing little more than the grading of homework. See for me this is the behavior I find as bad as what you are speaking of. Also "respectful" is a moving target here. It is an internet forum with no inflection and no tone and no way to see what people really are thinking. It is a stale form of communication and I have seen things I have said just offhand blow up WAY out of proportion and just be more than they were intended to ever be. Respect and intention are things that you "read into" a post, as opposed to being contained within the post itself quite often. Many times I agree you are right. Outright disrespect, name calling and so forth are just uncalled for and I admire your way of dealing with it. I am just trying to get some clarification on the matter. Often I have simply asked for people to explain if they are or are not taking a shot, or being just flippant. Too often internet interaction comes to the person reading and not the person writing. For example I hope this comes off as inquisitive and respectful, for that is how it is being written.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
Tim - first of all, thanks for initiating this thread. I think it is helpful to discuss and share ideas on how we should communicate here.
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I believe it is good to preserve someone else's dignity. I could not agree more. This only makes sense. Quote:
I am interested in communicating with people who make valuable contributions, not with those who tear down. My opinion here is, I do not mind if one tears an idea apart, just not the person. This is sometimes a line that is easy to cross, but we should be mindful of it. I have greatly learned from those who challenge/tear down an idea, so I would not like to see that aspect go away. I find the candor at times very welcome and a robust learning environment. When everyone is in a learning environment that is too agreeable, or everyone is too concerned with what others will think, then true learning is compromised. Quote:
Some examples I look to for good behavior on the Café are Jamie D Grant and Lou Serrano I am not as familiar with Jamie's posts, but for sure Lou exhibits "good behavior". I always appreciate what Lou shares and there is value in most of his posts. That being said, I also desire alternative styles that are more edgy in nature...more challenging. The blend is what makes Tricky Business exciting. Sometimes the best learning comes from an idea that is presented as a great idea, only to be challenged by a wise and experienced member who can share alternative perceptives that warrant consideration. I hope others jump in and add their two cents, as this is a great thread. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Oct 31, 2014, Tim Friday wrote: Congratulations on your "decision." Regardless of you"take" and "preferences" there is much great shared information, assistance and value here in this section of the Café. I guess it's up to you how you choose to interpret it. Since charliecheckers asked for others thoughts, I'll chime in. First, the tone and content you are talking about typically stems from a handful of members and usually using this forum for personal agendas, to take personal attacks and attempts to discredit someone or something. Usually without really contributing anything themselves. This usually happens because of lack of understanding or comprehension issues. This combined with jealousy and lack of respect can allow things to get out of hand at times and become non-productive. As you may have well seen recently there seems to have been an effort to clean up this area and a less tolerant approach here in Tricky Business. I've already seen longtime members who've left return, lurkers who have been afraid to post for the exact reason you've referred to, have become active, and even some new members have come in to join us. I truly feel this is the one area of the Café that can help one's entertainment business succeed, grow and profit more than any other area of the board. The behavior that you are seeming to reference occurs due to some specifics that I feel it is important for you and all of us to understand. It is this that leads to the tone you infer. This includes members that only seem to post when they have something to sell, plug, push or promote. These members don't regularly, or perhaps never post unless it is for their own personal gain. This miffs many members here. It's cheap, intentional and unprofessional. I get it. There are less experienced and less credible members that try to promote products and opinions on a level of which they do not exist or have little or no true legitimate terms of experience. This too is often quickly identified and called out. Again, I get it. There are members that feel just because they are on the same online forum, they are somehow on the same level of knowledge, experience and proficiency with the others who they are corresponding with, which end up in an exchange of true time-tested experience with just another's opinion. These are all the things that lead to the concerns, issues or problems you are referring to, the tone and the exchanges. With these understood you must choose how you want to participate. If you are only going to respond and learn from those that fall into your criteria, that's up to you, but I will tell you you will be limiting your own progress, growth and knowledge intake while likely alienating yourself from some great contributing members just because you don't care for their approach or personality. Sometimes it's putting these boundries on yourself and these limiting beliefs that creates the distention and exact barriers that you speak of. Food for thought. Again this choice is up to you. Even in your post, some could take it as offensive and condescending - "I am interested in communicating with people who make valuable contributions, not with those who tear down". I'm sure was not intended that way, but I'm just demonstrating that while it could be offensive to some members here, you likely do have much to contribute and shouldn't be alienated because of it. My opinion and belief (since it was solicited) is one should learn in anyway they can. I, as a contributing and productive member here am not going to worry about offering my decades of knowledge, experience and insight by wrapping it in a pretty package with a bow on it and hand deliver it to anyone. It's about the message and the content (the true value), and the often overlooked fact that it is being shared and being offered FOR FREE. To request or specify how it should be delivered is disrespectful and crazy. Do we only listen and learn from those we like? Do we only buy books from those we know or have met? Do we only travel streets we know are safe? Again, it's up to you, but all I'm saying is perhaps your perspective , well good-intended, can be prohibitive to you and the community. Sure in a perfect world I agree with you. We should all treat others as we we wish to be treated. I get it. I'm all for it, but I am also a realist and call it as I see it without sugar-coating or a pretty package. charliecheckers hits on a good point, Some of the best, most well-informed, valuable and passionate insights and information come from some of these exact topics and exchanges. It allows us to know these true people and their true level of experience and knowledge (and the exact opposite-lol). I hope you accept this as intended - as constructive input from a longtime contributing member from a realistic point of view. I really do hope you stay and contribute more than you have in the past. I hope it can change the perception others may have of you from being someone who just pops in occasionally to a regular contributing member with great intent. I also applaud you for your pointing out those you do respect in Jamie and Lou. Jamie doesn't participate here, and Lou, while contributing occasionally, and I do enjoy his posts and insights, reserves his insight and positions it seems to only post things lately in reference to his materials and stays away from most of the productive and beneficial "hot topic" threads and subjects that I think his experience and perspectives could be a welcome contribution. In the end we each have to chose how we participate. Since the cleanup here I have seen a kinder, gentler, more inviting and more productive forum. I hope you join us. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Oct 31, 2014, charliecheckers wrote: Very well said. I think the "edgy and challenging" come as a result of experience and passion for many. |
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Poof-Daddy Inner circle Considering Stopping At Exactly 5313 Posts |
One thing I always do that "I" find helpful when someone posts a "questionable " post is go to his/her profile and click on their last 30 days posts. You can find out very quickly on some that they are just a big bag of negativity or a very helpful contributor and maybe I am reading the intent of their comments wrong. It is not a perfect system, but it helps. Also, thru the years, I have come to find many who's words of wisdom I never question and a few people that I just skip over anything they have to say. I don't argue with them, I just ignore them. (I guess it is a little like the Danny Orleans method - interact with the good, ignore the bad).
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure
Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased). |
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lunatik Inner circle 3225 Posts |
Some have a great wealth of information to share but do so sometimes in a manner that SEEMS to be condescending or just plain rude. Sometimes they know it's coming across as rude, other times there is no ill will behind it. Online communication can definitely be tricky business (pun intended). Sometimes we infer a negative time while reading a sentence. Some choose to use emoticons to help alleviate those potential misperceptions while others never use them as they are not used in the professional realm.
My advice is to try to read what is written, free of misperceptions, assumptions, and have an attitude of learning. If after all of that, you still feel that they are being rude, maybe try PM'ng them to verify. Sometimes problems can be resolved in private rather than out in the open. I do believe that in a forum such as this, there needs to be unabridged honesty. If the idea that one has is bad, please state it in a way that is constructive and tell them what YOU have found out over the years. Try to relate to them, you were once there at some point in your career. Know your audience. Just because we're on a forum where professionals are here to help those who are starting off, it doesn't give you the right be be a j@cka55, and have an attitude of take it or lump it. Think of the way a Life Coach would interact with a client. They know how to deal with all types of personalities and will tailor for maximum effect. Will they have those tough conversations? Of course, but they will do so respectfully. Some of those who are brash on this forum will probably never change. They have a lot of knowledge and wisdom. At some point in time you'll recognize who they are. You may not want to deal with them, so I would write down the advice that they have given, and come back to it later and see how you can apply it to your business. It will pay off, I promise you. Good luck!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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lou serrano Special user Los Angeles, CA 671 Posts |
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On Oct 31, 2014, Tim Friday wrote: Thanks for the nice comment, Tim. I'm in good company with Jamie D. Grant. He's a gentleman online and in person. A while ago I read about a concept called the Party Principle. It's a term that was coined by a guy named Perry Belcher, and I blogged about it back in January of 2011, Social Media and the Party Principle. It's a rather obvious principle that I think many would benefit from if they kept it in mind. My thinking on this extends to participation on online forums. Whenever someone starts a thread, and I choose to participate, I view it like I'm a guest in this person's home. I would never go to another person's home and start arguments, belittle others, or talk condescendingly to the host and guests. Instead, I'd try to be of help to the host, and do my best to be a good party guest. On an online forum, I try to be a good party guest by offering good advice, and I try to encourage others to do their best. The key word there is "TRY". I may not always succeed, but I do my best. If I start a thread, and others participate, I feel as if these people are now guests in my home. And I try to treat all my guests with respect. If I have a party in my home, and someone starts arguing with me or my other guests, or is disrespectful to others, I have no problem kicking that person out of my home. I don't care how good a friend they are. Obviously, I can't do that on an online forum, so I will defend myself and my guests with as much diplomacy as I can. Quote:
On Nov 1, 2014, Mindpro wrote: There are two reasons why I don't post as often as I'd like, especially on "hot topic" issues. First, I don't have any desire to get into a heated debate about these things. It often happens, but it's not an enjoyable experience for me, so I just stay away. Second, I don't have the time to participate as often as I'd like. I'm running my business, expanding my business, and simultaneously working on multiple projects. I enjoy participating in these threads, so I do so when time permits. Regarding Tim's thinking in his original post. I applaud his decision. Respectfully, Lou Serrano |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
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On Nov 1, 2014, Mindpro wrote: This is so true. One of the things that really strikes me is that some people have a very narrow range of " instructors" from which they choose to learn. When I first joined TMC I never dreamed I would be learning from such a diverse group of accomplished and experienced entertainment professionals. The fact that there are so many cultures, attitudes, personalities and perspectives that are quite different makes it interesting and enriching. I have learned a great deal from members here who are probably polar opposites from others who I have likewise learned a great deal from. To me, it is much more important to evaluate the content and value of a post based upon the posters ability to explain their perspective than the style of writing or presumed tone of the posting. Quote:
I, as a contributing and productive member here am not going to worry about offering my decades of knowledge, experience and insight by wrapping it in a pretty package with a bow on it and hand deliver it to anyone. It's about the message and the content (the true value), and the often overlooked fact that it is being shared and being offered FOR FREE. To request or specify how it should be delivered is disrespectful and crazy. Exactly! |
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charliecheckers Inner circle 1969 Posts |
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On Nov 1, 2014, lou serrano wrote: Lou - this is a very interesting perspective. I never considered framing up how I post in such terms (to compare it to relationships out side of the on-line arena). I do not view posting here in those same terms. If I were to, I would never align my posting style here with the same intimacy of being inside someone's home. To me, this goes back to what Danny said up front, that communication here is not the same as communication to clients. The reason I believe this is true, is that the intent of the communication is different. To me, the purpose of me being inside another's home is largely social, not to teach or learn, while posting here for the most part is. I see this as a forum of like people who share a passion for entertainment business with a purpose of growing in our understanding. Debate and discussion provide a higher level of learning than merely polite observations or positive reinforcement (as one might do in another's home). This distinct difference is what separates learning here from anywhere else. |
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lou serrano Special user Los Angeles, CA 671 Posts |
Charlie,
You're certainly entitled to your point of view. I offered mine. To each his own. All the best, Lou |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Nov 2, 2014, lou serrano wrote: Isn't this the essence of what this place is all about? Which you never indicated anything to the contrary. Also lets remember the OP never told anyone else how to post. He only mentioned how HE has decided to interact. This is very important.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
To me it's also more about "what" your contribute rather than "how." Some can provide and share from experience, others can ask and seek questions and assistance, while others yet may just compare experiences or concepts.
I think when it comes to business more than any other ares, one size does not fit all and there are many layers and levels far beyond just the performance and marketing. Also the distinction of levels of performers and their business greatly comes into play here as well. Hobbyists and amateurs typically don't care about the "business" component of entertainment, where most here are doing so on some level that requires business in the equation. Their participation here usually reflects these things. Base don his Danny Orleans video reference I'm guessing he's another kids performer here? Since Tim Friday has established his approach and perspective to his being here, I hope he offers more info about himself to us. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
To me it's also more about "what" your contribute rather than "how." Some can provide and share from experience, others can ask and seek questions and assistance, while others yet may just compare experiences or concepts.
I think when it comes to business more than any other area, one size does not fit all and there are many layers and levels far beyond just the performance and marketing. Also the distinction of levels of performers and their business greatly comes into play here as well. Hobbyists and amateurs typically don't care about the "business" component of entertainment, where most here are doing so on some level that requires business in the equation. Their participation here usually reflects these things. Since Tim Friday has established his approach and perspective to his being here, I hope he offers more info about himself to us. Based on his Danny Orleans DVD reference I'm guessing he's another kids performer here? |
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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts |
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On Oct 31, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote: Thanks Danny, you make many good points. I beg to differ with you about no difference between constructive/destructive criticism. The example that comes to mind is American Idol - Simon Cowell. I would consider the majority of the feedback Simon gives as destructive, whereas the other judges were more constructive. This topic of giving criticism hits a nerve with me because I was in pharma sales for a few years and ended up with a manager who micro-managed me and gave criticism like Simon Cowell. Things finally got to a point where I sat down with him and told him I had been feeling angry about things at the job, I wanted to help him accomplish his goals, but I felt like I was in the car with Simon Cowell, and asked him if there was a way we could work together where I could better help him accomplish his goals. Toastmaster teaches give someone a sandwich - a positive, something they can improve, and finish with another positive. A friend pointed out to me this is giving someone a crap(edited) sandwich because the crap is in the middle, haha. I still believe it is an effective way to communicate. Finally I believe much of it comes down to the person, what do they respond to? Some people all it takes is a gentle suggestion and they take the initiative to improve, others only respond to harshness and yet still make no changes. |
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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts |
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On Nov 1, 2014, Mindpro wrote: Thank you Mindpro, you bring up many great points to discuss. Yes, that is correct, not everything I seek to learn is delivered in my preferred communication style. It's up to me what I do with it and how I respond to it. Sometimes the best response is simply "thank you." You mentioned sharing for free, I was wondering if you were considering writing a book or doing a dvd, because of the other thread you started recently asking people their business challenges. I think you would put together a very valuable product and I would be interested in buying it. |
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Tim Friday Elite user 485 Posts |
Poof-Daddy, thanks for your suggestion, that is a good way to get a read on someone.
lunatik and charliecheckers, thanks for your replies, you bring up many good points. Lou, I have not heard about that approach for online communication, but I really like it. It makes good sense to me. Quote:
On Nov 2, 2014, Mindpro wrote: Mindpro, what would you like to know? I have only done a few kid's shows so far, I would like to do more - not because they are my first choice but because it would be another line of revenue stream to my magic business. And I see a demand for this product in my area. Magic was my hobby from 9-13 years old and I rediscovered it as an adult at 29 years old, I am now 35 years old. So far most of my experience performing professionally comes from restaurants. I landed my first weekly restaurant gig March 2013 and had that gig until about a month ago. I recently have replaced it with two other restaurant gigs and I am hoping it works out at the new places. Also I have been performing a late night gig at a bar for just over a year, but it is a monthly gig. Of course I do private parties, most have been for adults. For my day job I am in sales. I have been in outside sales ever since I finished school - started 2 years in nonprofit, 3.5 years in pharma sales, and now medical device/supplies for the last 7 years. I enjoy sales because of the sense of accomplishment I get from it and am very interested in psychology/marketing that goes with selling. I have found my background in sales has served me well as I continue to build my magic business. That is a brief overview of me, please let me know if you would like to know more... |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Great topic Tim. Well said.
Some very smart famous dead man once said, “You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself.” So with that thought in mind, there are many times when a person needs to sniff through all the different opinions to find what fits them the best. A direct answer may not be enough; some want a little insurance to go along with it. So the debates and brainstorming threads can be a good thing. But I completely agree that it should never get personal. I’ve always said that a little encouragement can work wonders in helping one to find the right answers. It’s those posts that plant seeds of doubt in your ability that should be overlooked. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Nov 2, 2014, Tim Friday wrote: Thanks for the info. It always helps to better understand someone and their basics, level execution, type of performing and interest as it allows us to better understand how to respond and assist them and where they are coming from in their inquiries and perceptions. It also allows us to know if we are dealing with a young, starry-eyed kid or someone with an adult perspective. Both are fine but would be approached and served differently. Having interest and experience in sales is a very important and great asset to any entertainer. You are correct the kids market is a strong market, especially for those that approach it as a business, separate themselves from the pack and position themselves properly and take the time to understand the psychological and specific market aspects (as opposed to just the performer's) and is also great for having multiple streams of income. I think you'll find much help and support here in your magic business. Best of luck! |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On Nov 2, 2014, Tim Friday wrote: Tim - Thanks for your interest. Coincidentally enough I was in the studio just this weekend working on some of the audio and video components as I am revising and updating my original entertainment business course for beginners new to entertainment business from the late 1980's and have nearly completed the followup, more advanced entertainment business course as well. There are several other projects and releases that I have been working on diligently over the past couple of years pertaining to Four-Walling & Self-Produced Productions, a very complete and in-depth guide on working with Agents & Agencies, and other advanced topics including Touring, Fundraising, The School Market, Owning & Operating An Agency, and several other specialty releases, however I may be reconsidering releasing much of it due to recent attitudes and trends here. I'm still deciding because it is all such valuable and time-tested material, so we'll see. I may return to my live training events and of course still offer personal coaching and my monthly subscription membership. I will keep this forum posted on these releases as they may occur. |
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