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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Is it time to question "Whatever the market will bear"? (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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R.S.
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That's very true Danny. But should society try and balance the scales a little more? (or less?)

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Dannydoyle
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By just deciding what others can and can not make? I certainly don't want the government telling me I can only make X dollars
do you?

And don't they already pay taxes and such on the things they buy? How "equal" do you think things have to be exactly"
The real problem is politicians becoming millionaires with inside information that we would go to jail for.

Do you propose equality of outcome?
Danny Doyle
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On Nov 15, 2014, R.S. wrote:
The $100 million dollar athlete/celebrity and the $10 per hour babysitter are both getting a fair market salary for their services,



Despite attempts to paint the "market" as immutable and extrahuman, akin to the law of gravity, it is man created.

It is exactly as "fair" and immutable as the constructors allow.
It is exactly as fair and immutable as the fair laws of segregation.
It is exactly as fair and immutable as the fair laws of crime and punishment.
It is exactly as fair and immutable as the fair laws of the tax code.

Considerable sums of money, power, and lives are spent on keeping this so-called natural law intact.

There are other ways to organize economic activity.
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Do you propose equality of outcome?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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On Nov 15, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
By just deciding what others can and can not make? I certainly don't want the government telling me I can only make X dollars
do you?

And don't they already pay taxes and such on the things they buy? How "equal" do you think things have to be exactly"
The real problem is politicians becoming millionaires with inside information that we would go to jail for.

Do you propose equality of outcome?


As I indicated, I don't have a problem with athletes, celebrities, or whoever making huge sums of money. I question whether or not the current tax system could be made more 'fair' (or is it already 'just right'?).

I don't propose anything. I don't have any answers - I'm just wondering out loud. I'm curious as to what you guys think. Anyway, to the OP, If somebody wants to pay a baseball player $320 million that's OK with me. When it comes to buying a ticket to go to a baseball game I will make a personal decision (along with many others) about my ability/desire to purchase said ticket.

Meanwhile, Kim Kardashian is making a boatload of money doing whatever she does. I don't get it, but then again I'm not the one contributing to her pocketbook. Obviously, lots of people in this country are footing the bill for some (imo) pretty nonsensical and non-productive activities. But that's America for you. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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On Nov 15, 2014, R.S. wrote:
The $100 million dollar athlete/celebrity and the $10 per hour babysitter are both getting a fair market salary for their services, I suppose. But here's where it gets interesting... should society tolerate (or even condone) that the adult full-time babysitter, after paying income taxes, has to struggle just to survive, while the athlete/celebrity will easily be able to maintain a fabulously luxurious lifestyle after paying his/her income taxes?


It is not society's fault she made the CHOICE to be a babysitter, why should we pick up her slack?

Again ... if she was a caveman and she wasn't catching enough fish to eat ... what should society do about that? NOTHING! It is her CHOICE to do what she wants, not ours!

You can't make her stop fishing to do something more profitable. If she is so stupid that she keeps fishing even when she is not catching enough fish to survive, then it is her stupidity and natural selection suggests she should be killed off to prevent damage to the genestock.

When the problem is in proper focus, you realize there is nothing you can do for her - you can't magically make the fish she catches more nutritious, you can't get pigs to swim so she'll catch better food ... all you can do is explain to her that she can't get enough calories fishing alone and hope she is smart enough to figure out she has to do something else.

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Babysitter is actually an interesting example ... because in order to pay her more, you would have to pay the person she is babysitting for more ... and then the company she works for would have to charge more ... and when the cycle is complete, she still has the exact same purchasing power and absolutely nothing has changed. In the end, the lowest link in the chain will gain the least.

Meaning if someone is paid say $1 an hour ... and a widget costs $1 ... then they can earn 1 widget per hour.

Now if you increase someone's pay to $1.25 and then raise the price of a widget to $1.50, they are actually making less money even after you give them a raise. All these socialist attempts to correct these problems are miserable failures for that very reason. Think cheeseburger at Hardee's only 15 cents in 1950, compared to $5 today.

While it seems unrealistic today ... the idea that the dollar could be replaced will become a huge and realistic fear as this inflation continues to grow out of control. And should the dollar be replaced, your life as you know it will change drastically.

-JoeJoe
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Why not cut the excessive salaries in half still leaving a life of luxury for the earner. Then the ticket prices could be reduced, more people could enjoy events rather than just the wealthy, and you could give the babysitter a raise.
John

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Dannydoyle
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Yes Ron you have no answers. But don't bit the ticket, don't go to the movie and do forth. I see you have a computer and Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world. It's that fair? Yet somehow you still managed to buy a computer didn't you? Hardly seems consistent with your stance.

Or is it only things that you do not really engage in like sports games that are the problem?
Danny Doyle
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On Nov 15, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
Why not cut the excessive salaries in half still leaving a life of luxury for the earner. Then the ticket prices could be reduced, more people could enjoy events rather than just the wealthy, and you could give the babysitter a raise.


What is wrong with the market deciding?
Danny Doyle
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slowkneenuh
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This is one reason I don't mind giving money to Bill Gates (the world’s greatest living philanthropist):

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewcave/2......evement/
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
Dannydoyle
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He still keeps more money than anyone would possibly "need".

Over 80 billion still his. Is that"fair"?

Oh I wonder what the difference is?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
R.S.
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On Nov 15, 2014, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 15, 2014, R.S. wrote:
The $100 million dollar athlete/celebrity and the $10 per hour babysitter are both getting a fair market salary for their services, I suppose. But here's where it gets interesting... should society tolerate (or even condone) that the adult full-time babysitter, after paying income taxes, has to struggle just to survive, while the athlete/celebrity will easily be able to maintain a fabulously luxurious lifestyle after paying his/her income taxes?


It is not society's fault she made the CHOICE to be a babysitter, why should we pick up her slack?

Again ... if she was a caveman and she wasn't catching enough fish to eat ... what should society do about that? NOTHING! It is her CHOICE to do what she wants, not ours!

You can't make her stop fishing to do something more profitable. If she is so stupid that she keeps fishing even when she is not catching enough fish to survive, then it is her stupidity and natural selection suggests she should be killed off to prevent damage to the genestock.

When the problem is in proper focus, you realize there is nothing you can do for her - you can't magically make the fish she catches more nutritious, you can't get pigs to swim so she'll catch better food ... all you can do is explain to her that she can't get enough calories fishing alone and hope she is smart enough to figure out she has to do something else.

-JoeJoe

I don't know... maybe she didn't have much of a choice to begin with. Maybe she grew up without privilege and had to scrape for everything she got. Maybe she works full time as a babysitter because she'd rather do that than sit at home and collect welfare. Maybe she contributes to society in other ways. Maybe the rest of us neglecting people in that situation ultimately leads to us footing more of the bill when they end up in the hospital because they couldn't afford insurance and therefore had inadequate healthcare. Meanwhile, the Paris Hiltons of the world inherit their wealth and live a life of excess. Maybe if the top 1% contributed a little more then society as a whole would reap the benefits. Maybe. Something to think about anyway. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Nov 15, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes Ron you have no answers. But don't bit the ticket, don't go to the movie and do forth. I see you have a computer and Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world. It's that fair? Yet somehow you still managed to buy a computer didn't you? Hardly seems consistent with your stance.

Or is it only things that you do not really engage in like sports games that are the problem?


What exactly is my stance, Danny?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
JoeJoe
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On Nov 15, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
Why not cut the excessive salaries in half still leaving a life of luxury for the earner. Then the ticket prices could be reduced, more people could enjoy events rather than just the wealthy, and you could give the babysitter a raise.


That is like saying you want to eliminate xx number of fish from the pond, it won't help anyone ... it will only eliminate xx number of fish from the system that people can no longer eat, and EVERYONE will lose on that including the people you want to help.

ie: guy buys a boat, the boat store makes a profit, the sales man gets a paycheck, he buys dinner, he leaves a tip, the waitress pays the babysitter.

Now if you eliminate the boat from the economy, then the store loses ... the sales man loses ... the restaurant loses ... the waitress loses ... and the babysitter loses. What exactly is your objective??

Hint: this will in no way, shape, or form help a baby sitter buy a boat.

-JoeJoe

PS: and who is to say that the 'excessive salaries' are not already half of what they should be?? Hmmm.....
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On Nov 15, 2014, slowkneenuh wrote:
.. the ticket prices could be reduced, more people could enjoy events rather than just the wealthy, and you could give the babysitter a raise.


Oh the naiveté...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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On Nov 15, 2014, R.S. wrote:
I don't know... maybe she didn't have much of a choice to begin with. Maybe she grew up without privilege and had to scrape for everything she got. Maybe she works full time as a babysitter because she'd rather do that than sit at home and collect welfare. Maybe she contributes to society in other ways. Maybe the rest of us neglecting people in that situation ultimately leads to us footing more of the bill when they end up in the hospital because they couldn't afford insurance and therefore had inadequate healthcare. Meanwhile, the Paris Hiltons of the world inherit their wealth and live a life of excess. Maybe if the top 1% contributed a little more then society as a whole would reap the benefits. Maybe. Something to think about anyway. Smile


She has options. America is full of options. The world is full of options. I was homeless for six years and now I own my own house paid for in-full, you can't tell me there are no options.

And by the way ... Paris Hilton's grandfather is donating 97% of his wealth (over $2 billion dollars) to charities for the homeless, so to say she "inherited her wealth" would be inaccurate. She earned her money, and is supported by the fact she is worth $100 million verse her sister's mere $20 million.

-JoeJoe
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Dannydoyle
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On Nov 15, 2014, R.S. wrote:
The $100 million dollar athlete/celebrity and the $10 per hour babysitter are both getting a fair market salary for their services, I suppose. But here's where it gets interesting... should society tolerate (or even condone) that the adult full-time babysitter, after paying income taxes, has to struggle just to survive, while the athlete/celebrity will easily be able to maintain a fabulously luxurious lifestyle after paying his/her income taxes?


Ron


Is this your position?
Danny Doyle
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balducci
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On Nov 14, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Back to the sports stars for a moment- you also have to factor in the average career length of a professional athlete. It's not that long.

I don't know what the average career length of a professional athlete is, and it probably differs widely by sport. But I believe it is true that the average career length has increased greatly over our lifetimes. This largely due to what is known today about proper diet, training, conditioning, drugs, etc. It is no longer unusual for some pro athletes to play for decades.

And as for those who do have a short career, that short career is almost certainly when they are very young (in their late teens and 20s). They score a few years of huge multimillion dollar salaries that early in their career, they should never really _have_ to worry about working ever again. If they _DO_ have to work, they can score jobs on constructions sites or at Walmart or McDonald's or Starbucks like regular working stiffs.

One other thought, many star athletes nowadays do not end their career when they stop playing. Many retain their celebrity cachet and transition into fashion, music, acting, etc.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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On Nov 14, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:

Some of you are confusing the business of baseball (or other forms of entertainment) with the player. It is baseball itself--or Hollywood, or whatever--that is built on greed...and exploitation.

The owners get rich, the ballplayers gets rich ... meanwhile, most everyone in between (e.g., trainers, groundskeepers, hot dog vendors, ticket takers) get miserable wages ...

And let's not forget about the taxpayers who so often get stuck subsidizing the stadiums through costly municipal bond issues.

Smile

BTW, I checked Wikipedia. In 2014, 60 of the 100 highest paid athletes were U.S. citizens. So the "problem" of society described in the OP may arguably be a relatively local one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_l......athletes
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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