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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » A tangled web we weave... » » Thinking about starting a new site (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Tielie
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I'm thinking about starting a website about the ART of cheating at cards. That is what interests me most. The practice, the use, the feeling when getting away with it. I simply love it.
And the only site I know that covers that, must be paid for :S

So my idea is to make a forum to exchange experiences, give each other tips, etc.

Will there be interest you guys think?
Deal cards, not drugs!
therntier
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I want to know why so many people want to start up new forums. There are enough strong forums on the internet already that there really is no attraction for a magician to belong to another one. If I have a question that I want answered, I can get it answered already. So I don't think it would be worth your time to start up a new forum.

Even if you decide to go with this new forum, it would be my guess that card cheats would be more relectant to share there secrets. And there are less of them, so the discussions would not be as multi-dimensional.

It's up to you.

Trevor
Tielie
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Maybe you are right. But what I am talking about is a forum for people with special interest. For a pick-a-card effect, it will not be the place to be. Think I am going to try anyway.

Or it should happen that a special topic or forum is made on this board, that would be easier Smile
Deal cards, not drugs!
joblogg
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Sydney Australia
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Go for it....Id love to join as this is my special interst too,E S Andrews rocked
Tielie
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I got his book a few days ago. That guy was indeed brilliant. His description of the false deals is soo much better then the ones from hugard and braue I think. I also like his style of writing and his false cutting and everything!

It's my new bible Smile
Deal cards, not drugs!
cybercardmagic
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germany,berlin
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Tielie,

here is a website

http://cardshark.us/

for $ 4,95 for 1 year. I assume that to build a new website isn't cheaper!!!!??????????

cybercardmagic Smile
Tielie
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Yeah I know the site but I haven't got a paypal account. And I don't know if the site is any good.
Can someone tell?
Deal cards, not drugs!
Reis O'Brien
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Why not just petition the Magic Café to have a "Card Shark" forum. To discuss cheats and the history of it. It could be a 50 post or more kind of thing like Secret Sessions. Just an idea.
Homo vult decipi; decipiatur

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cybercardmagic
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germany,berlin
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Quote:
On 2004-01-29 13:20, Tielie wrote:
Yeah I know the site but I haven't got a paypal account. And I don't know if the site is any good.
Can someone tell?


Hi Tielie,

iam a member by cardshark and I think its o.k. Tutorials Videos and other stuff for cardcheating.

cybercardmagic
Tielie
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Well I might join there then.
If I got a question, are other people willing to help there? Give good advice, and not just "practise"?
Deal cards, not drugs!
Craig Krisulevicz
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Youcan get advice, but don't expect to have things handed to you on a silver platter. You are still going to have to dig deep on your own (in many other sources) to find out things you might want to know.
Who is John Galt?
master121
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Good luck with your website. I hope truly that it becomes an awesome site.

-master121
Paul
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A good lecturer at your service!
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Smile

Self deleted.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2004-01-29 06:36, Tielie wrote:
I'm thinking about starting a website about the ART of cheating at cards. That is what interests me most. The practice, the use, the feeling when getting away with it. I simply love it.
And the only site I know that covers that, must be paid for :S

So my idea is to make a forum to exchange experiences, give each other tips, etc.

Will there be interest you guys think?




I'm curious to know what you think the "art of cheating at cards" is. I'm also curious to know what you think you have to offer a gathering of individuals that know about such things. Finally, what type of information do you expect to get from contributors to such a website/forum?

Some examples: If by "the art of cheating at cards" you mean the moves such as false cuts, false shuffles, and false deals then I'm sure you'll find all too many people willing to discuss them. If you begin this forum, you'll be pointed to books you don't have, asked to watch videos you don't own, and will probably collect a whole bunch of internet video clips that are next to worthless (should you choose to allow such things to be posted on your site). But, you'll probably consider the site a huge success and will be just one more half-smart "magician in gamblers clothing" wannabe.

Or....

You could take the hard route.

The hard route means devoting lots of time, energy and money to learning all you can about REAL cheating, hustling, scamming, etc. It can't be done in a year, 2 years, or even a decade. You're in it for the long haul or you're not in it. You'll need to know how real games are played, how games are dealt or run (this is an incredibly important aspect of learning about real cheating, and one that is seriously neglected by most), the mathematics behind the games (and gambling in general), the psychology behind the players, dealers, gaming personnel, law enforcement and everyone in-between, and about a zillion other things that I won't bother to go into. Do this non-stop for about 20 years and I might add you to the small list of no B.S. people that I feel are qualified to discuss these matters authoritatively.

To give you an example of where I think I fall in the grand scheme of things, I own a medium-sized card magic library (almost 400 books), a small mathematics library (about 100 books), and a small gambling library (about 120 books). Only about 10 - 12 of my gambling books are devoted to cheating, although many have sections or chapters devoted to cheating. I've been studying the subjects of gambling and cheating for about 12 years now and consider myself a rank beginner with little or nothing to offer the 10 or so "serious" guys that I know about. I've met a half-dozen or so "real" cheats that have moved in casinos in some capacity, and I don't know any of them well enough to ask them for favors of any sort, although I know them well enough to ask my "beginner" questions from time to time.

The reality is, the moves that usually attract people to the world of card and dice cheaters aren't really all that applicable to modern casino cheating. Sure, they still happen occasionally, but for the most part the notion of a team of dice switchers waltzing into a casino and switching dice at the craps table then winning all the money before going home for the evening is pure Hollywood. In the 50s and 60s it certainly went on, but now...let's just use the word "infrequent" to describe how often this happens and leave it at that. So, if it's those moves that you love, by all means look for them, practice them, share them, talk about them, etc. I did, and I continue to do so to this day. You'll never hear me knock it. But I am all too aware that I know so very little about the real thing, and I think that's a lesson most of the guys who pipe up and say "Oh, me too! I love Erdnase, he rocks!" should take to heart.

I've posted a list of books that might get you started on learning the real thing if you're so inclined. There's a lot of them, and some of them are expensive (Casino Management was a $100) but they're the only way to even begin to learn about the real thing. Some are books on cheating methods and technique (I'll admit it, these are the fun ones), some are history books, some are compilations of stories, some are books on games or gaming strategy, and some are books on security or protection. But all of them are important if you want to really know the subject of gaming and cheating from the inside out. All the knowledge in the world on marked cards won't help you if you don't know the structure of a given game that they might be used in. Knowing that a dice or card switch exists and how to do it won't help if you're not familiar with WHEN you can do the move based on what the dealer might be doing at the time you want to move. The list of reasons on why you should be well informed on all aspects of gaming goes on and on. Enjoy.

Jason

Gambling Books
1. Darwin Ortiz On Casino Gambling - Darwin Ortiz
2. Casino Gambling For the Clueless - Darwin Ortiz
3. The Complete Idiot’s Guide To Gambling Like A Pro - Stanford Wong and Susan Spector
4. Smart Casino Gambling - Olaf Vancura
5. New Gambler’s Bible - Arthur S. Reber
6. American Mensa Guide To Casino Gambling - Andrew Brisman
7. K.I.S.S. Guide To Gambling - John Marchel
8. Casino Gambling: The Ultimate Play-To-Win Guide - Roger Gros
9. Playboy’s Illustrated Treasury Of Gambling - David Carroll and Darwin Ortiz
10. Caro On Gambling - Mike Caro
11. The Theory Of Gambling And Statistical Logic - Richard A. Epstein
12. Gambling Theory And Other Topics - Mason Malmuth
13. Getting The Best Of It - David Sklansky
14. Fighting Fuzzy Thinking In Poker, Gaming, And Life - David Sklansky
15. How To Make $100,000 A Year Gambling For A Living - David Sklansky
16. Fundamentals Of Video Poker - Mason Malmuth/Lynne Loomis
17. Fundamentals Of Craps - Mason Malmuth/Lynne Loomis
18. Fundamentals Of “21” - Mason Malmuth/Lynne Loomis
19. Fundamentals Of Poker - Mason Malmuth/Lynne Loomis
20. Extra Stuff/Gambling Ramblings - Peter Griffin
21. The Theory Of Blackjack - Peter Griffin
22. Hold ‘Em Poker - David Sklansky
23. The Theory Of Poker - David Sklansky
24. Hold ‘Em Poker For Advanced Players - David Sklansky/Mason Malmuth
25. Seven Card Stud For Advanced Players - David Sklansky/Mason Malmuth
26. Winning Concepts In Draw And Lowball - Mason Malmuth
27. Poker Essays - Mason Malmuth
28. Winning Low Limit Hold ‘Em - Lee Jones
29. Caro’s Fundamental Secrets Of Winning Poker - Mike Caro
30. The Body Language Of Poker (Mike Caro’s Book Of Tells) - Mike Caro
31. How To Hustle Home Poker - John Fox
32. Scarne’s Guide To Modern Poker - John Scarne
33. Sharps And Flats - John Nevil Maskelyne
34. Win At Poker - Jeff Rubens
35. The Complete Guide To Winning Poker - Albert H. Morehead
36. Professional Video Poker - Stanford Wong
37. Winning Strategies For Video Poker - Lenny Frome
38. Sklansky Talks Blackjack - David Sklansky
39. Professional Blackjack - Stanford Wong
40. Basic Blackjack - Stanford Wong
41. The World’s Greatest Blackjack Book - Lance Humble and Carl Cooper
42. Playing Blackjack As A Business - Lawrence Revere
43. Blackjack Secrets - Stanford Wong
44. Blackjack Wisdom - Arnold Snyder
45. Blackbelt In Blackjack - Arnold Snyder
46. Million Dollar Blackjack - Ken Uston
47. Knock-out Blackjack - Olaf Vancura and Ken Fuchs
48. Blackjack Your Way To Riches - Richard Albert Canfield
49. Blackjack Essays - Mason Malmuth
50. Blackjack: A Winner’s Handbook - Jerry Patterson
51. Blackjack For Blood - Bryce Carlson
52. Blackjack Attack - Don Schlesinger
53. Blackjack: A Professional Reference - Michael Dalton
54. Read The Dealer - Steve Forte
55. Card Counting For The Casino Executive - Bill Zender
56. Gambling And The Law - I. Nelson Rose
57. Blackjack And The Law - I. Nelson Rose
58. Indian Gaming And The Law - various
59. Gin Rummy: How To Play And Win - Sam Fry
60. How To Win At Gin Rummy - Pramod Shankar
61. Win At Spades Advanced Play And Strategy - Joseph D. Andrews
62. Secrets Of The New Casino Games - Marten Jenson
63. The 101 Most Asked Questions About L.V./Casino Gambling - George Joseph
64. Gambling Scams - Darwin Ortiz
65. Dealing With Cheats - A.D. Livingston
66. Marked Cards and Loaded Dice - Frank Garcia
67. Road Hustler - Robert C. Prus/CRD Sharper
68. How To Detect Casino Cheating At Blackjack - Bill Zender
69. Casino Surveillance - George L. Lewis
70. Poker To Win: Expose Of Advantage Play - Al Smith
71. Secrets Of Gambling - Hugh Miller
72. A Friendly Game? - Bert Morris
73. Cheating At Bridge - Judson J. Cameron
74. Card Sharpers - Robert Houdin
75. How They Cheat You At Cards - Eugene Villiod
76. The Stealing Machine - Eugene Villiod
77. Spotlight On The Card Sharp - Lawrence Scaife
78. Master Key And Runup Systems - Unknown compiler
79. Taking The Edge - R. Martin Allen
80. Cheating At Blackjack - Dustin D. Marks
81. Cheating At Blackjack Squared: The Dark Side Of Gambling - Dustin D. Marks
82. Flim Flam Man: How Con Games Work - M. Allen Henderson
83. The Change Raisers - W.M.Tucker
84. Sting Shift - Lindsay Smith/Bruce Walstad
85. Keeping Carnies Honest - Lindsay Smith/Bruce Walstad
86. The Phantom Of The Card Table - Eddie McGuire
87. Koschitz’s Manual Of Useful Information - Koschitz
88. Dice Holdout Methods For Magicians - Jerry Mentzer/Eddie Fechter
89. Dice: Squares, Tops, And Shapes - Burton Williams
90. How You Are Cheated At Dice - Williard King
91. Handmucking: The Art Of Switching Cards In Play - George Joseph
92. Old West Series: The Gamblers - Time Life Books
93. Forty Years A Gambler On The Mississippi - George DeVol
94. Turning The Tables On Las Vegas - Ian Andersen
95. Burning The Tables In Las Vegas - Ian Anderson
96. A Book On Casino Craps, Other Dice Games, & Gambling Systems - C. Ionescu Tulcea
97. Can You Win? - Mike Orkin
98. What Are The Odds? - Mike Orkin
99. The Mathematics Of Gambling - Edward Thorp
100. Beat The Casino - Frank Barstow
101. The Smart Gambler’s Guide Of Europe - Unstated
102. Casino USA - Lisa Hansen/Mariann Zywiec
103. The Casino Gambler’s Guide - Allan Wilson
104. Deal Me In - Mark Pilarski
105. Super Casino - Pete Early
106. Casino Management - Bill Friedman
107. The Eudaemonic Pie - Thomas Bass
108. The Art Of Gambling Through The Ages - Arthur Flowers/Anthony Curtis
109. G.A. - Gamblers’ Anonymous
110. Dice: Deception, Fate and Rotten Luck - Ricky Jay
111. The Man With the $100,000 Breasts - Michael Konik
112. Casino Surveillance: 150 Things You Should Know - Gary Powell
113. Scarne On Cards - John Scarne
114. Scarne’s New Complete Guide to Games and Gambling - John Scarne
115. Poker Nation - Andy Bellin
116. MacDougal On Dice and Cards - Mickey MacDougall
117. Casino Gamble Talk - Victor H. Royer
118. Bringing Down the House - Ben Mezrich
119. Telling Lies and Getting Paid - Michael Konik
120. Hold ‘Em Excellence - Lou Krieger
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
ASW
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I agree with Jason.
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
JasonEngland
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Wow Andrew,

Looks like I shut that thread down in a big hurry. Nary a peep from the peanut gallery.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Euan
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The hard route sounds like a lot more fun
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