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Mr. Woolery
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I get DVDs because the Internet in Fairbanks is so 1999. Also, having lost a lot in a computer crash makes me really uncertain about trusting to soft storage.

I realize that for someone whose business is Internet video delivery it seems like everyone is totally connected all the time. I have to take my computer to my dad's house to check email because the only provider in my area still does not have availability after five years of waiting for them to get their poop in a group. No cell reception at the house either. I live in the same nation as you but it is in many ways a different world.

That is why I still love DVDs.

Patrick
Bob Sanders
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LOL! Techies like to believe that everyone uses the Internet today. It is far from true. Fact: one of IBM's past International Presidents and America's foremost experts on UFOs has no computer and uses a cloth ribbon typewriter.

Perhaps a better example of the lack of expertise and common (especially in the US Government) usage out there is the computer roll-out of Obamacare. Another prime example is how easy it has been to fool the mass media to believe that the IRS emails were EVER on the private computer to be EVER be lost from a hard drive! They don't even know where to go to get help.

Others simply don't trust information security on the Internet.

Computer use is not new to me. I have used them for 36 years. In the late 70s I was the Director of Marketing and Fiscal Management of a organization that only existed to distribute computer delivered information. Computers are much more common but not universal. The diffusion of innovation is much less than many would like to believe.

A funny case is that the world's largest phone company (Verizon) cannot do business over the phone. You must physically go to one of their walk-in locations and call from there! This is specifically required for their Internet Service products. (I just replaced them with Hughes Net for that very reason. After heart surgery I needed to do business by phone.) Technology is great but far from universal.

Don't stop trying. But deal with reality too. Remember that this too will be replaced with something else in time.
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com
Yellowcustard
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Just something else to add. Yes the option of downloads are become more common. Whit Hayden stuff is avilable on down load and DVD.

Believe it or not but in some place of the world the access of reliable and affordable internet is limted. I live in New Zealand and access is limted and costy compared to England. Just to add
Enjoy your magic,

and let others enjoy it as well!
funsway
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The OP said, "It's not like bandwidth is a problem on the interwebs anymore."

I would challenge this and suggest that our "bandwidth" problems are only beginning.

First, it is not free. Somebody pays for it and the bills are increasing all the time.

For example, I have several rental houses in which I include Cable TV and Internet as part of the package (no extra charge to the renter).
In the last year there has a been a shift from cable based TV viewing to "Streaming" and social media that requires great bandwidth, plus interactive games.
We constantly exceed out Bandwidth and are charged additional fees that cannot be passed on to the renter. One renter thinks it is neat to back up his computer each week on the Cloud using up 40 gigs of bandwidth a week.

Second, major providers will find ways to control bandwidth and charge more for it. Find some software that allows you to estimate your bandwidth usage.
Then call your provider and ask whet is "normal" for a family of four. You will find that their objective is to increase the "necessary" usage with plans to raise the fees.

Third, many devises now use bandwidth without permission of the person paying for it. This is a form of theft. Router passwords only go so far and are easily hacked.
Folks think it is "kool" to talk to your coffee pot and spy on your kids illegally home without supervision. To do this they must open their security to invasion.
Regardless, eventually ways will be found to better control the theft.

So, right now we might consider bandwidth as an unlimited resource. I don't know its "limits" but it cannot be infinite -- and somebody will find a way to charge you for it.

The more you become a slave to it the more it can control you.

But, what should I know. I own a property that is off the grid completely -- no Internet, no cellphone, no TV, no smoking where the primary rules are,
"You can't be mean and you can't be boring."

The sad part in this shift to Internet slavery is that many now do not know how to enjoy solitude or appreciate the value of reading a book over snippets of information at someone else's whim.

One value of a book is that you can put it down and think without missing anything.

In learning magic I prefer a combination of "visual learning" methods, observing the steps and then reading the instructions as I practice.

In teaching magic, most of my effects are only 20% of what can be seen on a video. The "real stuff" is what cannot be seen like "psychological ploys."

Oh well -- at last survey only 28% of the world has access to a computer, but everyone can appreciate magic.

DVD, stream, download -- not the real problem at all.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
wwhokie1
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Quote:
On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever.

How did people learn before books??
Dr. JK
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Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever.

How did people learn before books??

Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms.
- Jeff Kowalk, The Psychic CPA
www.psychiccpa.com
Kabbalah
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Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, Dr. JK wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever.

How did people learn before books??

Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms.

And, in that master/apprentice relationship, at least those I have experienced as both the student and the teacher, books were and are the very foundation of of the learning process.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
MGordonB
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A lot of "new ways of doing things" are solutions to problems that don't really exist.

Now excuse me while I go flip over the record...
Bob Sanders
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LOL! So true. I remember over 30 years ago when I applied HIGH TECH and converted SAM's 8mm film to VHS.
Bob Sanders

Magic By Sander / The Amazed Wiz

AmazedWiz@Yahoo.com
wwhokie1
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Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, Dr. JK wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 17, 2014, wwhokie1 wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 14, 2014, Kabbalah wrote:
*Visual learning* is nonsense. How did folks learn before the computer age?

Books are forever.

How did people learn before books??

Master-apprentice model. Still one of the best, and why the DVD medium is very effective. It doesn't replace in-person instruction, but gets closer than many other teaching forms.

And, in that master/apprentice relationship, at least those I have experienced as both the student and the teacher, books were and are the very foundation of of the learning process.

Not before books were invented. Point simply being that "visual learning" is not nonsense. I have done a lot of teaching and some people just learn better visually. I've known kids that pick up math concepts with ease by simply reading a book. Other kids just don't get math concepts until they see it; there are a lot of visual tools designed for that specific purpose and it is sometimes amazing the difference it makes. Example, my son is not a visual learner, visual things will often slow him down with learning. My daughter is very much a visual learner, if she can see it, touch it, watch it then she understands it much better. Buy a "book" on learning styles, people learn in different ways. Yes, anyone can learn from a book, but for some people there are better ways, or, depending on the subject matter, they benefit from visual supplements. Don't dismiss something just because it doesn't work for you.
JoshTmagic
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I agree
funsway
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"Buy a "book" on learning styles, people learn in different ways"

Don't have to -- got them while getting my Masters Degree in Educational Technology.


The three types are Visual, Auditory and Kinetic. Those things learned primarily from visual stimulation and relationships with other memories of visual events.

Learning from books is Visual Learning. Learning from a DVD is Visual Learning often augmented by Auditory Learning. These are two different visual media.

Many posters on the Café' use Visual Learning to mean "From a DVD or Video tape or TV viewing" This is incorrect.

However, a person might learn more easily from one form over the other for any number of reasons including laziness.

You mention "Visual supplements" while also implying they are not "Visual learning."

There is very little available for a student of magic to learn other than by Visual Learning. A preference for a particular visual media is understandable, but doesn't make it not be Visual Learning.

Yes, there are a lot of "visual tools" -- all part of Visual Learning. Saying, "I am a Visual Learner so I can't learn from a book," is like saying, "I am not a vegetarian because I only eat potatoes."

Most people today have been trained to learn from MIxed Media. A wise magic marketer would provide both.

More important is that all of the Media approaches only support Instrumental Learning. Th essential Functional Learning components can only come from "doing it."

Emulating a video can be easier, while practicing each step from a book (and some DVD's) develops more transportable skills.

In a simplistic view a video supports "learning what" while a book supports "learning how." Some DVD's are incremental enough to replace books.

But all of these are VISUAL LEARNING.

The OP suggest that learning from a tiny screen from a streaming video will work well. I will have to wonder "were's the magic?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Pepsi Twist
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Funsway you're my hero!
wwhokie1
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"Saying, "I am a Visual Learner so I can't learn from a book," is like saying, "I am not a vegetarian because I only eat potatoes." " -funsway


Actually, I never said that. In fact I specifically said that "anyone can learn from a book".

Yes books are a form of visual learning, but do not necessarily address the needs of a visual learner. Just because you use your eyes to see the words instead of your ears to hear the auditory sounds doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of visual learners. People seeing words on a page visually is only a small start in addressing the needs of a visual learner. It is when books contain images, pictures, diagrams etc... that they begin to really address a visual learners needs. If it is just words then there is still the need to translate the words into something that can be visualized. That is why elementary textbooks in math contain many pictures and not just numbers. It is to help the learner visualize what the number represents. Books can be a source of visual learning but only if they are designed for that specific purpose, and are done well. To say that any book is a form of visual learning is just not accurate. Watching a dvd is not necessarily visual learning either. If you are watching someone talk then you are using auditory skills, and visual skills, but this doesn't address the needs of the visual learner. The visual learner needs to do more than just be using their eyes, it is not about mere "visual stimulation".

Some Characteristics of a visual learner from the book "The Way they Learn" by Cynthia Tobias
- need to see an illustration of what is being taught before they understand it
- are drawn to flashy, colorful, visually stimulating objects
- prefer books that include pictures or illustrations with the text
- often look like they are daydreaming when they are actually just trying to get a mental image of what's being said
- usually remember better when they can actually see the person who is talking.


people are not able to learn using only one style, but one learning style is usually dominant.

Posted: Dec 19, 2014 09:37 am
Note that I am not arguing against books for visual learners, or even in favor of dvds for visual learners. A book with great diagrams would be preferred to a dvd of just talking or a dvd with poor visual demonstrations. Also, using dvds simply because someone finds it to require less effort than reading a book is a sure sign that the person is not willing to put the necessary effort into learning. Technology doesn't make book learning obsolete, it just gives us new tools to better customize the learning to an individual's needs. Electronic books that can include graphics and video can provide a great educational experience.
funsway
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Obviously, "ww", my comments are not for you and your views even if I disagree with some of your interpretations.

The problem is the general perception of, "I am a visual learner so please send me a DVD -- I can't learn from a book."

This is an incorrect view of learning. Some of your comments seem to support this attitude even if your objective is to illustrate that mixed media is best.

The real problem is the assumption that magic can be learned by watching someone else doing it and attempting to emulate their actions.

Words on a page, photos or videos can only provide part of the information and knowledge essential to being an accomplished magician.

To pretend that changing the visual media to some other preferred form will make a difference is folly.

I have some effect in which the basic instructions of the "trick," and "effect" only fill a single page and could be demonstrated on video.

I also provide 20 pages of support information on theory, reason why a particular sleight is used, psychological ploys and subtleties -- none of which can be on a video.

So, the plea "just give me something I can see" is a refusal to do the work to learn magic.

this is a reality. If you wish to really want to learn how to be an accomplished magician you must read, must practice functionally, must perform in front of people and must come to 'understand" the secrets of what makes magic work.

Thus does not allow for "preference of leaning media." You either are willing to do the work or not.

If you just want to do tricks to impress your girl friend no learning is required. Just show her the YouTube clip and claim it is you.

but, saying there is no difference between hearing someone speak words and and reading them is so "wrong" to me that I want to weep. This both denies any skill in verbal story telling or verbal argument and the fact that reading a book is under your control. You can pick it up or put it down, flip back to read a precious passage or pause to look up a word in the dictionary. In watching video the assimilation possibilities are controlled by someone else. In listening to someone speak your leariing is limited by there rate of presentations and many distractions -- none under your control.

But -- I will admit that what you say is a step up from the general view and assumptions -- so please keep posting ;-)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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wwhokie1
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"but, saying there is no difference between hearing someone speak words and and reading them is so "wrong" to me that I want to weep. This both denies any skill in verbal story telling or verbal argument and the fact that reading a book is under your control. You can pick it up or put it down, flip back to read a precious passage or pause to look up a word in the dictionary. In watching video the assimilation possibilities are controlled by someone else. In listening to someone speak your leariing is limited by there rate of presentations and many distractions -- none under your control. " - funsway


actually, I would agree with all of that. I would even add that two people speaking the exact same words or reading publicly the same book can deliver two different messages. Also in reading a book , you may provide a completely wrong interpretation to what was written due to a variety of reasons.

Perhaps you misunderstood my comment. I think you were referencing the following comment: "Just because you use your eyes to see the words instead of your ears to hear the auditory sounds doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of visual learners." I am trying to reference the idea that just because reading is a form of visual learning that doesn't mean that it addresses the needs of the visual learner. It is an upgrade from strictly auditory learning, but far more needs to be done than just words on a page.

As I said, books can be great for visual learners, so can dvds. Either can also be bad. Dvds can provide some things that books cannot, especially for visual learners. But I have also "never" found a dvd that contained all the info that can be put in a book. Personally, I am an avid reader. I enjoy movies, but typically find them inferior to the book they are based on.

I think we mostly agree.
Dick Oslund
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A most stimulating and educational discussion!

I'll 'stay tooned'!

I'm finding this especially interesting, and informative, because, although, my college was "liberal arts", I've been a mentor and also a teacher, since I was old enough to share information with another person!

My summers, for many years, were spent in Boy Scout Camps. Many of those years, I was in management. In later years, I directed a training course for new adult scouters, who had had no scouting experience as a youth. They needed to learn basic outdoor living skills so they could train the junior leaders in their troops, so the junior leaders could pass the skills along to the younger scouts.

I was thrilled to receive great positive comments on the course. Especially appreciated was my knot tying skills course. (Many people are "psyched out" by knots!)

I simply developed a system of verbally and physically sharing basic and fundamentsl knowledge and skills, combined with hands on practice. (How do you eat an elephant?!?!) I had picked up a 3 line "summary" of learning: "I hear, I forget, I see, I may remember, I do, I "got it"! So, I cut the "lecturing" to a minimum. I used more demonstrations. I used lots of projects. The basic "teaching method" was "EXPLAIN, DEMONSTRATE, GUIDE, ENABLE". The Guiding and Enabling phases involved POSITIVE COACHING AND MENTORING.

I sure wish that I had had more courses in teaching methods!

I usually began the course, by emphasizing that, "I can't really TEACH you anything--I can only HELP YOU LEARN. --And, I followed that up by quoting Sophocles: "One learns by DOING the thing!"

Thanks Ken, and "ww" for your excellent input.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
wwhokie1
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I hear, I see, I do, makes a great 3 line summary. I would suggest a fourth line: I teach. When someone can explain it or teach it back to you or to someone else, then they really know it. I find that being able to teach it to someone else makes me think through the process in ways I didn't before.

Anyway you look at it, there are no short cuts to learning. And the lazy seldom learn anything. Learning takes time and effort. Better quality materials, and/or a better quality instructor, combined with a lot of hard work by the student can speed up the process.

One problem in today's society is the reliance on screens for every aspect of life. Which so often results in people wanting to sit and absorb without doing. I think this is what many react to when they discuss using video for learning. You cannot turn learning into a passive endeavor. Learning is active work, which is why I agree so much with Dick's comment above, "I can't really TEACH you anything--I can only HELP YOU LEARN." The best teacher in the world cannot teach an unwilling student.
Dick Oslund
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I think that "thee" and me, and Ken,also, had the same mother! (We seem to think pretty much alike. We'll always have minor differences, but that makes life more interesting. Discussion leads to agreement, often.

I like the way you've stated your thoughts. I also like the "teach" the "next guy" concept.

Yup, (no short cuts) Who was the Egyptian Pharaoh's son who asked his teacher for a short cut, and the teacher replied, "There are many Royal roads, but no Royal road to learning."

I forgot to mention that I also tell the group after "I cannot teach you anything, I can only help you learn" --because LEARNING IS AN ACTIVE NOT PASSVE PROCESS. I note that you and I are in agreement on that point, we just express our thoughts slightly differently.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
funsway
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I'd like to sweeten the pot with a couple of other thoughts. The most ancient learning principles I have found are "Attention-Retention"

Make sure you get and sustain attention, then provide some reason for the learner to retain it. The latter usually meant some story or example.

When teaching classes as a substitute and students started some diversion game I just stopped until they gave me attention again. I always told a story or did some magic to give them a hook to remember by.

On the visual side I have found the sillier the illustration is the more the concept will be remembered.

........

Consider how Christ taught. He asked questions and told stories. Why do we think we can improve on that?

.....................
The Interrogative Speech Method can be simplified to "Tell 'em what you plan to say, Tell 'em, Tell 'em what you told them." In education this becomes "Preview, Substance, Review"

In strategy this becomes "Plan, Execute, Report -- and so on.

....

Within all these approaches is the assumption that the instructor observes how the student is receptive to the material and changes the media to meet the needs of each student, i.e. you present the material with the media mix most likely to work for the group and then mediate the training to meet individual needs often as the result of questions or a quiz. At the college level it was assumed that the student studied the core material before coming to class, with class time spent on questions and examples to meet individual needs. Somehow this has been lost.

For the learning of magic the best process is Mentored Instruction -- difficult to do with worthy student often far from the Mentor. Skype is a possibility, but I would always require some scaffolding understanding of knowledge and a demonstration of commitment before getting involved. The key is to create an environment in which the student might learn -- then remove the barriers to self-learning.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
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