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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rockwall
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Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! Smile
magicfish
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On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! Smile

Yes. They really took it easy on each other at Gettysburg too.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! Smile


I don't know about WWII, but it is well documented that the established front lines did shoot to miss, and the favour was returned. Documents from both sides show generals furious over this clever bit of cooperation.

There were plenty of other occasions for bloodbath, mainly in open battle, where no cooperative strategy was possible.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MaxfieldsMagic
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On Jan 31, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Any man that can kill a minimum of 155 people and be at peace with himself is probably damaged in ways the sane among us cannot even imagine.


Context, Tony, context. Was he killing people or was he saving people by killing killers? You may disagree with the viewpoint or characterization, but at least acknowledge that there is a possible "sane" motivation for what Kyle did, one that might have brought him some peace that he did the right thing. The world is not black and white, my friend.
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Dannydoyle
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One could argue that a man with the ability to save others who chooses not to would be damaged in some way.

Soldiers are soldiers. Think of the numbers of people killed in WWII. Then divide by the number of those in the infantry and you get to some scary numbers of people killed per soldier even if they aimed over anyones head.

Don't try to put a peace time model on war. It does not work. They're asked to do a job that can not be comprehended by most. To throw about terms like sanity and sit back to judge them with some sort of moral superiority is not sane in my view. Heck the only reason you even can sit in such judgment is in one way or another due to the soldiers commitment.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war.
arthur stead
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This is what's happened now in South Africa, where I was born. The army (which during the apartheid years was all white) is now comprised mostly of blacks. And they decided to form a union. So if they don't feel like obeying a certain command (including going to war), they simply go on strike.
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mastermindreader
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On Jan 31, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Well, that answers that lifelong mystery about why so few were killed in WW1 and WW2! Smile


Figures you would mock the story my grandfather told me.

I suppose you're telling me it's not true and that the Christmas truce never happened.

OF COURSE hundreds of thousands were killed in the two wars. Who said there weren't?
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On Jan 31, 2015, landmark wrote:
It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war.


Reminds me of the old question, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

And it's still a good question.

Phil Ochs had a good answer:

Dannydoyle
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War is an abomination.

One problem. It is still at times necessary. Again the only reason we can sit and pontificate about it in the first place is the soldier.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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I am not a pacifist. I agree that sometimes war is necessary--though far, far less necessary than the history of the world would indicate.

But that still doesn't mean that soldiers get to hang up their morals, intelligence, humanity, and conscience at the door. What I am objecting to, is this celebration of the amoral robot action figure. Sorry, but an amoral robot can never be a hero.
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To you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.
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On Jan 31, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Tony- You've reminded me of something my grandfather told me about one of his experiences in the first world was. He was a private in the German army and was involved in trench warfare. He said that they always shot above the heads of the French during the day and the French did the same. I asked him why. He explained that many men from both sides snuck out of the trenches at night to play cards with each other and they didn't want to accidentally shoot someone who owed them money.

He added that, at least in the engagement he was involved in, no one was really interested in killing anyone anyway.
http://www.history.com/topics/christmas/......as-truce

That is a wonderful story, and an affirmation of the basic humanity of most of those involved in even the most brutal of conflicts. Delighted you shared it.
Dannydoyle
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.



Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.



Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way.


They don't claim that they are mainstream. They claim to be thoughtful and have morally defensible views. And I believe they do.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.



Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way.


If they were mainstream locally, I wouldn't have to keep speaking up now, would I?

But from what I can see, Christianity has done pretty well.
Dannydoyle
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Never be a hero to me as well. Well said Landmark.



Yea that makes two of you. Seems a whole bunch of people seem to disagree. Probably conservatively tens of thousands to one.

But you guys keep pretending your views are mainstream in some way.


They don't claim that they are mainstream. They claim to be thoughtful and have morally defensible views. And I believe they do.



People who think he is a hero also have morally defensible views. Only difference is without guys like Chris there would be no room for the other views.

The morally defensible views only have the ability to exist because soldiers and others have the courage to act. Then they have to put up with being called murderer because people think they are taking the moral high ground.

I wish there was a way that each could live the consequences of their own personal viewpoint. You guys could live in a world where the soldier does exist and it not affect anyone but you. Too bad this is a fantasy. You guys get the benefit of holding them in contempt and live under the very freedoms thesoldier provides. How lucky for you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MaxfieldsMagic
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did.
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critter
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I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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