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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution?

Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively.



If you think that what worked in Ireland will necessarily work elsewhere, I think your argument rests on a faulty assumption.


If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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On Feb 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:

But the peace movement will keep carrying on fighting for the freedoms that they have always had to fight for despite conservative obstruction. And you get the benefit. How lucky for you.


The peace movement has never fought for anything!

Cowards do not fight!

Fought and won.
But that wold require knowing history.
rockwall
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.


Don't tell that to Kuwait. ... or Europe.

... Or were you referring to the 21st century?
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.


Don't tell that to Kuwait.


the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me!
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs.
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Who is stopping you from implementing this oh so simple solution?

Lack of authority. It is not my country. We implemented it in Ireland. As an Irishman I backed it fully. As a journalist I was able to campaign for it. I don't live in the Middle East. What's stopping you do something? Unlike Ireland, America has butted it, and quite aggressively.



If you think that what worked in Ireland will necessarily work elsewhere, I think your argument rests on a faulty assumption.


If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.



And what odds do you put on sitting down and reasoning with ISIL, Al Qaeda, et al?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.


Don't tell that to Kuwait.


the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me!


So is it that Kuwait is not a region?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs.


And to think it could be a fine upstanding province of Iraq if we'd just left it alone!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Sure seems that way, doesn't it?
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'....


I challenge you to quote where in the book it shows him to be racist and to have a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans.

The first three pages make it crystal clear.



Is that a quote? You do know a quote when you see one don't you?

If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that.
landmark
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
Kuwait. Yah. That little adventure turned out just dandy.

Kind of like celebrating the solitary wall of a house left standing after you destroyed it with bombs.


And to think it could be a fine upstanding province of Iraq if we'd just left it alone!


Is your premise that Iraq is now, at last, a fine upstanding province? The harsh reality is that many, many thousands of people would still be alive and millions would have homes, but for US intervention. Instead, the US has destroyed thousands of years of culture, decades of infrastructure, and brought even more terror and regional instability to the area. Are we one whit safer for all the lives and money spent? In a word, no. We are all in far more danger than in 2003 from this failed, failed policy.
LobowolfXXX
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My premise is that Kuwait still exists.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought that was the proposition before us.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
MaxfieldsMagic
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
...we [in Ireland] changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.


OK, but don't pat your national back too hard:

"The simple explanation for the Good Friday Agreement is that George Mitchell, a representative of President Clinton, spent years working with the two sides and developing the principles that formed the basis of the agreement."

Source: page 2 of http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/13509/1/BPhil_FINAL.pdf

The USA engages diplomatically when it can. Nonetheless, military action remains an unfortunate necessity at times. Chris Kyle was called upon to help with the latter, and he did it exceptionally well. That doesn't mean there weren't hundreds of dedicated public servants in the State Department working on alternate strategies at the same time.
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MaxfieldsMagic
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.



Maybe you have a different legal system in Ireland (although I doubt it, since our laws are based on English common law, so perhaps you misunderstand your own system), but here in the USA, you are legally entitled to use deadly force on individuals who threaten you or others with deadly force - which is a necessary component of "carjacking." Why would it be immoral? You are a victim who is preserving your life by stopping a threat. Their rights end where yours begin. There's no legitimate ethical issue.
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Dannydoyle
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

Then is it ok to just call him a murderer?

As for war vs diplomacy how did that work out in WWII? How can you put forth a blanket idea that one is ALWAYS better than the other?

Clearly several here feel no war is ever justified. This is the position that informs all if their opinions. Fairly sad position to take.

Some feel war is always the best first Orion. Again fairly sad position to take.

But it is pathetic to frame it as you have to pay moral gotcha games.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought that was the proposition before us.


You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

Then is it ok to just call him a murderer?

As for war vs diplomacy how did that work out in WWII? How can you put forth a blanket idea that one is ALWAYS better than the other?

Clearly several here feel no war is ever justified. This is the position that informs all if their opinions. Fairly sad position to take.

Some feel war is always the best first Orion. Again fairly sad position to take.

But it is pathetic to frame it as you have to pay moral gotcha games.


Have I said any of those things, Danny? Nope.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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