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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
It seems to me that you and Tony are talking about the effectiveness of diplomacy and negotiating with the enemy, not non-violent resistance.

Tony is talking about that, and he's arguing by analogy that such a strategy would likely be effective in the Middle East as evidenced by the fact that it worked in Ireland. My tongue-in-cheek question to which you responded was designed to point out the fallacy in that logic. Stand in front of Hitler's tanks, for instance, and see how far that gets you. Have Gandhi tell Hitler that he'll stop eating if he doesn't vacate France. Good luck with that. My point wasn't about non-violence, per se; it's about Tony's repeated (see also a number of past gun control threads) and inapposite extrapolation or Ireland to the rest of the world.



Quote:
I don't think the Middle East situation is the same


That's all I was saying, in my own convoluted way.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Kabbalah
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RIP Chris Kyle.

Gone two years today. Smile
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming.


I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Au......n+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free.
landmark
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I never claimed to have read the book. I was offering a more plausible reason for not posting the chapter.
Dannydoyle
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And be gave a plausible reason why that is wrong.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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I didn't say you had. I was only trying to helpfully point out why there is no possible reason why the whole chapter would have to be posted. (Besides the fact that he also said, "The first three pages make it crystal clear.") But believe me, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't even need to post anywhere near 3 pages to find the little snippet that he wants to twist into making Kyle a racist and xenophobe.

But hey, I'm willing to be proven wrong. Let's add 4: It's possible there's something on the first 3 pages that I missed. (Although I doubt it and that would still beg the question of why he's unwilling to post it.)
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming.


I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Au......n+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free.


Can you read it? Maybe I'm blocked here in Canada, because all I see are the front and back covers and size chart. Smile
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming.


I suspect you haven't read the chapter. I can guarantee that there is very little in the chapter that would even remotely constitute what he's claiming. (Unless talking about growing up in Texas and learning to cut horses and ride rodeo somehow makes someone a racist.) So no, not 4.

But don't take my work for it, you can see for yourself. Here:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Au......n+sniper

Amazon has very kindly allowed you to read much of the first chapter for free.



Probably 20% or so of NVMS would agree that growing up in Texas suffices to support the "racist" charge.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
rockwall
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Do you see the 'Look Inside' message just above the book? If you click on that, it pops up a window that allows you to read multiple pages. (You may have pop ups blocked if it's not coming up.) Or maybe it doesn't work in Canada, I'm not sure.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
...

Probably 20% or so of NVMS would agree that growing up in Texas suffices to support the "racist" charge.


And that may well be Tony's faulty reasoning but without him telling us we'll never know for sure, will we?
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
RIP Chris Kyle.

Gone two years today. Smile


With you on this, Kabbalah. Chris was a man and, to me, one hell of a man...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that.


Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2.

If you read the opening chapter of his book and did not see the xenophobia, the problem is with you. The xenophobia screams off the pages.
Dannydoyle
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For example...

Come on you're a writer.

This is not the first time you make claims and don't back them up. I would think a writer would be more willing to do this as opposed to assuming agreement of all.

You may very well be right. But back it up.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you?
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe you're not aware of this, but the troubles in Ireland are sometimes referred to here as an example of the unintended consequences of gun control. You had a group of terrorists that were able to wield extraordinary power and intimidate large numbers of people because... they had guns. And others didn't.

Regardless, qualitatively you're on shaky ground, to say the least, if you compare a reconciliation between the Protestants and Catholics in an ethnically homogenous country to the task at hand in the Middle East, which goes way beyond any Sunni/Shiite issues. If it had stayed an internal Sunni/Shiite conflict, Chris Kyle might have remained a rodeo cowboy.

I, like most Irish people, am unaware of this (your first paragraph). Simply because it is not true. The terrorist groups had two weapons of choice. Bombs and baseball bats. The bombs were used for the worst atrocities, and killed thousands. The baseball bats were used to intimidate the local population. They had guns too, but less than the security forces, who were very heavily armed. It was a war of terror waged with bombs and baseball bats, so it is hardly an example of the unintended consequences of gun control.

As for your second point, Northern Ireland was not, still is not, an ethnically homogeneous population. There are three distinct ethnic groups up there. They share white skin, but are ethnically different. Just as the Sunnis and the Shiites share a skin colour but are ethnically different.

I am not saying that what worked in Ireland (and South Africa, and India, and many other places) will work every place. But it is certainly worth a shot.
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you?


------------------------------------------------------------------

Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you?


I see, so you're going with #3. i.e. "They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does."

We'll start with racist and then move on to xenophobia.

A racist, as you are probably aware, is a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others. No where in the quotes you provide does Mr Kyle say anything about a 'race'. He talks about 'the enemy'. Those he is fighting, not the Iraqi people or any particular race. Anyone with a 5th grade level of reading comprehension would be able to figure that out. Only someone wanting to project their beliefs about what they think he 'meant' would believe otherwise.

Xenophobia. An irrational fear of foreigners or strangers. Nothing in the words you provided shows any type of irrational fear of 'foreigners'. Again, his words specifically were targeted at the enemy, not the Iraqi people. (And there was certainly nothing irrational about having a fear of being killed by this particular enemy!)

He called the enemy 'savages'. Well, I for one would certainly agree with this feeling much the same as I believe that ISIS is made up of savages. An enemy that cuts the heads off of enemy combatants and regularly sets off bombs that they know will blow up many of their own fellow citizens is nothing but savages. I would dare guess that a large percentage of Iraqi's would agree.

But hey, maybe you think they're all just wonderful people who are just a bit misunderstood and that I'm a racist and xenophobe for my opinion. On that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Now, that wasn't really so hard to do, was it?
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
...
If you think that American military intervention will bring peace and stability to a region, you weren't paying attention to the 20th century.


Don't tell that to Kuwait.


the middle east is now secure? Thanks for telling me!


You seemed to have miss-placed a portion of the quote:

Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Don't tell that to Kuwait. ... or Europe.

... Or were you referring to the 21st century?


And btw, I thought you were against putting words in someone's mouth. I never said that the Middle East is secure. I think that Kuwait could certainly be considered a region unto itself.
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Chris Kyle's own words:
My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman's twisted soul.
(That woman - his first victim. What makes American souls intrinsically worth more than non-American souls?)

A lot of people, myself included, called the enemy 'savages'.

I only wish I had killed more.

I loved what I did. I still do. If my family didn't need me I'd be back in a heartbeat. I'm not lying or exaggerating to say it was fun.

Is that enough for you?


I see, so you're going with #3. i.e. "They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does."

We'll start with racist and then move on to xenophobia.

A racist, as you are probably aware, is a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others. No where in the quotes you provide does Mr Kyle say anything about a 'race'. He talks about 'the enemy'. Those he is fighting, not the Iraqi people or any particular race. Anyone with a 5th grade level of reading comprehension would be able to figure that out. Only someone wanting to project their beliefs about what they think he 'meant' would believe otherwise.

Xenophobia. An irrational fear of foreigners or strangers. Nothing in the words you provided shows any type of irrational fear of 'foreigners'. Again, his words specifically were targeted at the enemy, not the Iraqi people. (And there was certainly nothing irrational about having a fear of being killed by this particular enemy!)

He called the enemy 'savages'. Well, I for one would certainly agree with this feeling much the same as I believe that ISIS is made up of savages. An enemy that cuts the heads off of enemy combatants and regularly sets off bombs that they know will blow up many of their own fellow citizens is nothing but savages. I would dare guess that a large percentage of Iraqi's would agree.

But hey, maybe you think they're all just wonderful people who are just a bit misunderstood and that I'm a racist and xenophobe for my opinion. On that, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Now, that wasn't really so hard to do, was it?

Apparently it really was so hard to do - you just don't get it. You see the words, you even understand their meaning, as separate words. You just don't see what your hero was really like. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and put it down to rose-tinted spectacles. But I think the real reason is a closed mind and a limited world view.

Doubtless you will come back with more empty noise. Knock yourself out, but it's getting stale.
TonyB2009
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Acesover, thanks for clarifyng the pants issue! That had me seriously confused.
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