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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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I agree with critter about a lie.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...


As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...


As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving.

Pretty . . . but not purely.

Another . . . ahem . . . bullet dodged.
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did.

How about this for wrong by any moral standard - he either murdered civilians (unlikely) or was a complete liar. That level of lying is wrong by most moral standards.

Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

This afternoon I read the opening chapters of American Sniper. Any of you who haven't should. You get a real picture of the man from his own words, and it is not a nice picture. He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced.
acesover
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On Feb 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
It is their commitment that enables wars. If all soldiers refused to fight there would be no war.


and if everyone stopped using drugs there would be no market for them and no drug cartels or no more potheads, and if people stopped stealing there would be no thieves and if everyone stopped working everyone would starve to death because we would have no food or clothes or shelter from the elements because no one would be paying taxes for the government to give hand outs and if their were no soldiers that gave their lives for people like you you would not be able to say what you want. What point are you trying to make here? If there was no sun it would be cold.

Just to finish it is their commitment that makes you a free man ina free country. Show some respect and be somewhat grateful and stop living in a fantasy world. As I said in another post. Adam and Eve screwed up what you want a long time ago. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where Chris Kyle did anything wrong by any moral standard. Let's back out the story about New Orleans, which most of us don't believe, and the carjacking episode - which if true, still falls in his favor, both legally and morally. Let's just focus on his military service. Did he deliberately kill any non-combatants? If not, he stands on firm moral ground, IMO, and I heartully thank him for his service and everything he did.

How about this for wrong by any moral standard - he either murdered civilians (unlikely) or was a complete liar. That level of lying is wrong by most moral standards.

Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.

This afternoon I read the opening chapters of American Sniper. Any of you who haven't should. You get a real picture of the man from his own words, and it is not a nice picture. He was a deeply biased and racist man, who had a xenophobic hatred of non-Americans. His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced.




So I gather that you feel that it would have been better if he had not killed anyone? Or just some? Or just the ones you think are bad? What exactly are you saying? Do you also feel we don't need soldiers? That soldiers are bad and are the cause of wars? When a terrorist comes knocking on your door try handing him a flower and say "welcome"...see how that works. Maybe they will behead you...but who needs soldiers? You and landmark can talk to the enemy. Send them a text and say that you understand how they feel. Tell them you hate our soldiers because they kill people who are trying to kill us. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
balducci
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Something making the interweb rounds ...

https://twitter.com/billyeichner/status/560591815313981440

I am pretty sure it is sarcasm.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
acesover
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Asking you people out there that feel Chris is a bad guy. Would you pull the trigger on the executioners who beheaded all of those people? Or do you feel it is wrong?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
mastermindreader
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Yes I would. But I wouldn't shoot people from the top of the Superdome. I wouldn't even make up lies about it.
Kabbalah
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced.


If it would give me great pleasure to shoot and kill the ISIS savages that are beheading people, would that make me a xenophobe and a monster?
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Dannydoyle
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Why is it those who seem to think criminals need understanding are unwilling to understand this man? Where is all that tolerance and understanding we give to enemies?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an......_my_war/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
acesover
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On Feb 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Yes I would. But I wouldn't shoot people from the top of the Superdome. I wouldn't even make up lies about it.


Agreed. But you just might shoot someone from the top of the Superdome if that someone were one of those that beheaded people. Smile Just busting you here Bob. I understand and I feel the same way you do on this.

Chris definitely had issues. I have no idea of his private hell. But I have experienced things that make one say and do things that we regret upon reflection.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an......_my_war/


Yep a great non biased source there.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an......_my_war/


Yep a great non biased source there.

"Garett Reppenhagen served as a Cavalry Scout Sniper with the 1st Infantry Division in the US Army and deployed on a peacekeeping mission in Kosovo and a combat tour in the Diyala Province, Iraq in 2004. Garett works as a Regional Director for Vet Voice Foundation and is a veterans advocate"

I guess he IS pro-U.S., pro-military, and pro-veterans, so you are correct that he is biased.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an......_my_war/


Yep a great non biased source there.


yeah, better to stick to neutral sources like Clint Eastwood.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
critter
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, critter wrote:
I am of the opinion that a purely self-serving lie is a dishonorable act. Morality is a more subjective measure. Ethics, there's probably some general consensus on a few universally unethical behaviors...


As magicians, most of our lies are pretty self-serving.


Maybe the way Criss Angel does it Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, balducci wrote:
An American sniper who served in Iraq speaks:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/01/i_was_an......_my_war/


Yep a great non biased source there.


yeah, better to stick to neutral sources like Clint Eastwood.


Gee I would love for you to show me where I took a position either way on Clint Eastwood or the moviev or the accuracy of any of it.

Come on John put up or shut up.

And Salon is biased.

Eastwood has an obvious agenda. Selling movie tickets. Fairly easy to know that right?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His killing was motivated out of a sheer pleasure in killing 'savages'. Two days ago I suspected the guy was a monster. Now I am convinced.


If it would give me great pleasure to shoot and kill the ISIS savages that are beheading people, would that make me a xenophobe and a monster?

Not a xenophobe necessarily, but a monster certainly. If you killed out of a sense of duty, and to save lives, I can get that. But if it gave you great pleasure, that would indicate a serious character flaw in you.

As I said, read his book. His own words condemn him.
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, acesover wrote:
So I gather that you feel that it would have been better if he had not killed anyone? Or just some? Or just the ones you think are bad? What exactly are you saying? Do you also feel we don't need soldiers? That soldiers are bad and are the cause of wars? When a terrorist comes knocking on your door try handing him a flower and say "welcome"...see how that works. Maybe they will behead you...but who needs soldiers? You and landmark can talk to the enemy. Send them a text and say that you understand how they feel. Tell them you hate our soldiers because they kill people who are trying to kill us. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Having lived in a country with a major terrorism problem, as opposed to the odd incident you have in the USA, I feel I am quite qualified to comment on this. For thirty years the terrorists and the army/police fought, and thousands were killed, most innocent non-combatants. Probably like several of Kyle's victims if we were to analyze each kill. Levels of hatred and bigotry were so high here Kyle would have fitted right in.

Then we changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.
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