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Devious Inner circle 2120 Posts 
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I have stayed away from this topic intentionally, but after surveying the feelings of folks closer to this issue, over the past few weeks I would like to express myself here. @Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period. Arthur Stead's comments rule the day in the military. Chris was on the user end. Every Man from Teams both former and current that I am on familiar terms with disagrees with profiting from stories each Man can tell. "They used to go after our families for doing what he did!" He committed to donating the proceeds from the book to the deceased family members at the 3 minute 20 second mark. He did not follow through. I have no plans to watch nor support the film, but I still consider Chris Kyle a Brother whether I personally agree with him or not. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5045 Posts
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@Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period. Oh, I'm quite aware of that. If I were hiring others to murder for my benefit, I wouldn't want the people who do the dirty work for me to think either. It's due diligence as a human being to know why you are being sent to kill another human being. Ignorance, as they say, is no excuse. Quote:
Chris was on the user end. He put himself on the user end. There's still agency and personal responsibility available.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1197 Posts
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There are micro and macro levels. He was killing them, because doing so saved the lives of his fellow soldiers.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, arthur stead wrote: It was made quite clear at the Nuremberg trials that it is not a defense to war crimes to state that one was "only following orders." Quote:
Superior orders, often known as the Nuremberg defense, lawful orders or by the German phrase "Befehl ist Befehl" ("orders are orders"), is a plea in a court of law that a person, whether a member of the armed forces or a civilian, not be held guilty for actions which were ordered by a superior officer or a public official.[1] Much more about this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders |
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: It doesn't appear that it was made all 'that' clear. "Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings." The London Charter of the International Military Tribunal specifically relates to 'unlawful' orders which is not always easily defined and certainly not related to the acts most military 'grunts' are ordered to perform in fighting a war. For the act to be considered illegal, "the order must be of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal". You can't 'decide' what you think is an unlawful order. An unlawful order would have to be something that goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) or the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). |
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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts
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I was a medic in the United States Army. My job was to conserve the fighting strength of US troops. When that commitment meant killing the enemy, that became my primary duty.
Soldier First!
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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If you can't decide what an unlawful order is, it makes no sense to say that you CAN decide if the order goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict. If you're not permitted to make that decision, the "I was only following orders" defense would be universally valid.
But it's not. Recall the case of William Calley: Quote:
Calley assumed that his order to “kill the enemy” meant to kill everyone. In his personal statement, Calley stated that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley |
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1823 Posts
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The point is that, even in this great country which is considered to be one of "the good guys", orders are given to kill, supposedly to protect other American lives. If you, as a soldier, don't follow those orders, you can be court-marshalled and sent to prison or dishonorably discharged. (Or, in days gone by, shot for treason).
So the blame, therefore, would lie with the Commander-in-Chief who ultimately gives the orders. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts
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The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.
His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote: Please cite reputable sources for these accusations.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 230 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, Kabbalah wrote: Brandon Webb good enough for you? Kyle told the stories to him, but also to several reporters. Not hard to find the articles on line if you look. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Webb_(author) "Brandon Tyler Webb (born 1974) is a former United States Navy SEAL and SEAL Sniper Head Instructor, with combat deployments to southwest Asia, including Iraq and Afghanistan, and an author. He served as the Navy SEAL Sniper Course Manager, where he developed new curricula and trained snipers, including Chris Kyle. He is the editor in chief of SOFREP and a media commentator on snipers and related Special Operations Forces military issues. Webb is the co-author of The 21st Century Sniper: A Complete Practical Guide and his memoir The Red Circle." http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/0......osshairs "Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator ... The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos." http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-spe......katrina/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morni......history/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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Those facts sure get pesky sometimes.
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Kabbalah Inner circle 1621 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, balducci wrote: I will research this. Thanks.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green "The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them." ~ John Northern Hilliard |
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NicholasD Inner circle 1460 Posts
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On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote: If he were doing anything illegal, he should have been prosecuted. If not, sounds like he was killing people who deserved it. |
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?"
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts
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If he shot and killed looters then he deserved to be prosecuted. If not, he was a liar and a blowhard. As I said, not one of the good guys.
How can we lionize a sniper, whose job is to shoot people in the back, or from cover and by stealth? I know they on occasion save lives, but it is hardly a noble calling. I would feel more pride in my son becoming a gigolo.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1823 Posts
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Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4572 Posts
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On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Depends on which side of the rifle you are on.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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mastermindreader V.I.P. Seattle, WA 12589 Posts
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On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote: I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper. What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper. |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jan 27, 2015 01:50 pm 
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