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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Devious
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I have stayed away from this topic intentionally, but after surveying
the feelings of folks closer to this issue, over the past few weeks I
would like to express myself here.

@Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period.
Arthur Stead's comments rule the day in the military. Chris was on the user end.

Every Man from Teams both former and current that I am on familiar terms
with disagrees with profiting from stories each Man can tell.

"They used to go after our families for doing what he did!"

He committed to donating the proceeds from the book to the deceased family
members at the 3 minute 20 second mark. He did not follow through.

I have no plans to watch nor support the film, but I still consider
Chris Kyle a Brother whether I personally agree with him or not.
Devious Deceptions
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landmark
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Quote:
@Landmark, it doesn't work that way in the field. It's need to know, period.

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. If I were hiring others to murder for my benefit, I wouldn't want the people who do the dirty work for me to think either.

It's due diligence as a human being to know why you are being sent to kill another human being. Ignorance, as they say, is no excuse.

Quote:
Chris was on the user end.

He put himself on the user end. There's still agency and personal responsibility available.
LobowolfXXX
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There are micro and macro levels. He was killing them, because doing so saved the lives of his fellow soldiers.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Regardless, in your capacity as a soldier, you have no right to question their orders.


It was made quite clear at the Nuremberg trials that it is not a defense to war crimes to state that one was "only following orders."

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Superior orders, often known as the Nuremberg defense, lawful orders or by the German phrase "Befehl ist Befehl" ("orders are orders"), is a plea in a court of law that a person, whether a member of the armed forces or a civilian, not be held guilty for actions which were ordered by a superior officer or a public official.[1]

The superior orders plea is often regarded as the complement to command responsibility.

One of the most noted uses of this plea, or "defense", was by the accused in the 1945–46 Nuremberg Trials, such that it is also called the "Nuremberg defense". The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals, held by the main victorious Allied forces after World War II, most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, and economic leadership of the defeated Nazi Germany. It was during these trials, under the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal which set them up, that the defense of superior orders was no longer considered enough to escape punishment; but merely enough to lessen punishment.[3]


Much more about this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
rockwall
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On Jan 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
...
It was made quite clear at the Nuremberg trials that it is not a defense to war crimes to state that one was "only following orders."
...


It doesn't appear that it was made all 'that' clear.

"Historically, the plea of superior orders has been used both before and after the Nuremberg Trials, with a notable lack of consistency in various rulings."

The London Charter of the International Military Tribunal specifically relates to 'unlawful' orders which is not always easily defined and certainly not related to the acts most military 'grunts' are ordered to perform in fighting a war.

For the act to be considered illegal, "the order must be of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal".

You can't 'decide' what you think is an unlawful order. An unlawful order would have to be something that goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) or the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
Kabbalah
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I was a medic in the United States Army. My job was to conserve the fighting strength of US troops. When that commitment meant killing the enemy, that became my primary duty.

Soldier First!
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mastermindreader
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If you can't decide what an unlawful order is, it makes no sense to say that you CAN decide if the order goes against the Laws of Armed Conflict. If you're not permitted to make that decision, the "I was only following orders" defense would be universally valid.

But it's not.

Recall the case of William Calley:

Quote:
Calley assumed that his order to “kill the enemy” meant to kill everyone. In his personal statement, Calley stated that

Quote:
I was ordered to go in there and destroy the enemy. That was my job that day. That was the mission I was given. I did not sit down and think in terms of men, women, and children. They were all classified as the same, and that’s the classification that we dealt with over there, just as the enemy. I felt then and I still do that I acted as I was directed, and I carried out the order that I was given and I do not feel wrong in doing so.


After deliberating for 79 hours, the six-officer jury (five of whom had served in Vietnam) convicted him on March 29, 1971, of the premeditated murder of 22 Vietnamese civilians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley
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The point is that, even in this great country which is considered to be one of "the good guys", orders are given to kill, supposedly to protect other American lives. If you, as a soldier, don't follow those orders, you can be court-marshalled and sent to prison or dishonorably discharged. (Or, in days gone by, shot for treason).

So the blame, therefore, would lie with the Commander-in-Chief who ultimately gives the orders.
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TonyB2009
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The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.
Kabbalah
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.


Please cite reputable sources for these accusations.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
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balducci
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.


Please cite reputable sources for these accusations.

Brandon Webb good enough for you? Kyle told the stories to him, but also to several reporters. Not hard to find the articles on line if you look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Webb_(author)

"Brandon Tyler Webb (born 1974) is a former United States Navy SEAL and SEAL Sniper Head Instructor, with combat deployments to southwest Asia, including Iraq and Afghanistan, and an author. He served as the Navy SEAL Sniper Course Manager, where he developed new curricula and trained snipers, including Chris Kyle. He is the editor in chief of SOFREP and a media commentator on snipers and related Special Operations Forces military issues. Webb is the co-author of The 21st Century Sniper: A Complete Practical Guide and his memoir The Red Circle."

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/0......osshairs

"Webb, now the editor of SOFREP, a Web site covering special-operations forces, invited Kyle and another former SEAL to participate in a taped discussion about life as a special operator ... The SEALs began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos."

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-spe......katrina/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morni......history/
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mastermindreader
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Those facts sure get pesky sometimes.
Kabbalah
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, balducci wrote:

Brandon Webb good enough for you? Kyle told the stories to him, but also to several reporters. Not hard to find the articles on line if you look.



I will research this.

Thanks.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
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"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
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NicholasD
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Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
The more I read about Chris Kyle the more horrible a person he appears - a boastful, vain, unthinking killer. How he can be seen as any sort of hero staggers me.

His boasts of killing looters after hurricane Katrina, murdering car-jackers, etc, if true brand him as a natural killer every bit as bad as Ted Bundy. And if not true (some of his stories have been proven to be fabrications) it does not speak much to his character that he got kicks out of boasting of killing people. Any way you look at him, not one of the good guys.


If he were doing anything illegal, he should have been prosecuted. If not, sounds like he was killing people who deserved it.
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Really? If he actually shot and killed up to thirty alleged looters in New Orleans after Katrina (as he boasted of doing), whatever happened to due process of law? Is that not required if you feel the victims "deserved it?"
TonyB2009
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If he shot and killed looters then he deserved to be prosecuted. If not, he was a liar and a blowhard. As I said, not one of the good guys.

How can we lionize a sniper, whose job is to shoot people in the back, or from cover and by stealth? I know they on occasion save lives, but it is hardly a noble calling. I would feel more pride in my son becoming a gigolo.
mastermindreader
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What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?
arthur stead
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Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors.
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Payne
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

What's the difference between a sniper and an assassin?



Depends on which side of the rifle you are on.
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mastermindreader
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On Jan 28, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Assassins kill for profit. Snipers are military personnel who are ordered to kill by their superiors.


I guess Lee Harvey Oswald was a sniper, then. There is no evidence that he ever got paid to do it. If you recall, many early reports of the Kennedy assassination stated that the President had been shot by a sniper.

What about the serial killer known as the D.C. sniper? He wasn't paid for his actions. Nor was Charles Whitman- the infamous Texas Bell Tower Sniper.
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