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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Chris Kyle -American Sniper (25 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought that was the proposition before us.


You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea.


Ok, how do you assess the chances of "sitting down and talking" with ISIL and Al Qaeda as a relatively simple strategy to end extremist Islamic terrorism?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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And/or the notion that "it worked here, so it will work there"?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Before we get all silly with one another, the proposition before us is that diplomacy is generally preferable to war. Am I correct in reading some of these responses as generally preferring war to diplomacy?


So now that you're done questioning my understanding of 20 century history, you're going to regroup without weighing in on Tony's premise that making nice with militant Islamic terrorists is the quick and easy way to peace, on the grounds that it worked in Ireland? Here I thought that was the proposition before us.


You're not being honest. Tony never suggested "being nice". He did, however, use the Irish example of difficult diplomacy. Let's not trivialize a serious idea.


Ok, how do you assess the chances of "sitting down and talking" with ISIL and Al Qaeda as a relatively simple strategy to end extremist Islamic terrorism?


Let's first deal with acknowledging what Tony actually said.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
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Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
Carjacking story falls in his favour, both legally and morally? In what universe? Legally, if true, he executed two people without any legal process. No trial, no conviction. That is legally indefensibly. And as for morally, he is on even shakier ground. Is this the law of the Hollywood old west, where the man with the quickest draw is king? That is a morally warped world view.



Maybe you have a different legal system in Ireland (although I doubt it, since our laws are based on English common law, so perhaps you misunderstand your own system), but here in the USA, you are legally entitled to use deadly force on individuals who threaten you or others with deadly force - which is a necessary component of "carjacking." Why would it be immoral? You are a victim who is preserving your life by stopping a threat. Their rights end where yours begin. There's no legitimate ethical issue.

We do have a different legal system in Ireland and the UK. You are not automatically entitled to use deadly force on those threatening you. Reasonable force yes, deadly force, no.

Our legal systems differ from the USA in a number of respects. For instance, in common with the entire developed world, we do not execute criminals. Only third world countries - and the USA - do that.

(I know there are a very few countries, like Japan, that occasionally execute prisoners, but it has virtually died out in the civilized world none the less).
TonyB2009
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On Feb 1, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
[
...we [in Ireland] changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.


OK, but don't pat your national back too hard:

"The simple explanation for the Good Friday Agreement is that George Mitchell, a representative of President Clinton, spent years working with the two sides and developing the principles that formed the basis of the agreement."

True - but that is not the full picture. George Mitchell became involved after the contacts were made by both the Irish and the British governments with the paramilitaries. He joined the peace process in 1995, but the initial moves had been taken around seven years prior to this. He was involved in the final three years of a ten year process. Because he was an outsider, with the backing of a major world power, he had the gravitas to be a great dialog facilitator.

It is a shame that the US doesn't try the same in the middle east. It has been shown to work in Ireland. If you had sent troops into Ireland it would not have produced peace. All I am saying is that there are more mature ways of the US handing foreign policy than the shoot 'em up redneckery of Chris Kyle and his ilk.
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Are you really going to go that route Tony?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Let's first deal with acknowledging what Tony actually said.


Having lived in a country with a major terrorism problem, as opposed to the odd incident you have in the USA, I feel I am quite qualified to comment on this. For thirty years the terrorists and the army/police fought, and thousands were killed, most innocent non-combatants. Probably like several of Kyle's victims if we were to analyze each kill. Levels of hatred and bigotry were so high here Kyle would have fitted right in.

Then we changed our approach. Instead of snipping at each other, and bombing each other, and killing women and children, we sat down and talked. We stopped seeking retribution. And within about three years we had peace, prosperity, old enemies working side by side in friendship. What thirty years of violence and bloodshed couldn't achieve, three years of dialog achieved.

Soldiers and terrorists talking, and trying to understand one another, works. That's fact, not speculation.



ok, now that that's out of the way...have at it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015

I really feel that speaks volumes. Yea lets listen to what a person has to say that likes to ride the subway after taking off his pants and standing there reading a newspaper. Yea I want to know this guy's thoughts about the world situation. Smile NOT.

Now who could this person be? Please step forward and identify yourself. But first put on a pair of pants. Jeez...
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?

The refusal of Germans to join the military.
acesover
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On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015

I really feel that speaks volumes. Yea lets listen to what a person has to say that likes to ride the subway after taking off his pants and standing there reading a newspaper. Yea I want to know this guy's thoughts about the world situation. Smile NOT.

Now who could this person be? Please step forward and identify yourself. But first put on a pair of pants. Jeez...

By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.
MaxfieldsMagic
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Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins.
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acesover
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.


You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Seriously folks. How can one take anything an individual that believes this makes sense? No Pants Subway Ride 2015


Just between you and me, that wasn't my endowment in my shorts, but a concealed semi with which I shoot subway looters. American Sniper all the way, baby!
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?

The refusal of Germans to join the military.


Agreed, but not one of the choices.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.


You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.

Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.


You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.

Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.


If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?

The refusal of Germans to join the military.


Agreed, but not one of the choices.

Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers?
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.


You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.

Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.


If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person.

Well, John, I'm truly sorry you feel that way, and I wouldn't mind having a drink with you some day, but I am not at all sorry for the way I think or feel about the war.
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
First of all the proposition is if a soldier can be a hero or is it ok to defame him at will?

No, the proposition is whether Chris Kyle can be called a hero. And my reply was no, robotic amoral soldiers can never be heroes. There are some soldeirs who I think could be termed heroes. Hugh Thompson for one.


You want me to give you a list of Heroes? Read this some time: The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall in Washington DC.

I knew several of them on this list and lived with them and saw them die. So don't you tell me about someone you read about and never even knew. Go back and take off your pants and take a ride on the subway and read the newspaper. That is more your speed.

Sorry, but fighting in an immoral war doesn't instantly make them heroes. They may have been good men who thought they were doing good, but that alone doesn't make them heroes.

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.


If your "sorry" stated above in your post is an apology for your following statement it is not accepted.

Do yourself a favor and don't GO THERE. It is not the way to make friends.

I hope we never meet in person.

Well, John, I'm truly sorry you feel that way, and I wouldn't mind having a drink with you some day, but I am not at all sorry for the way I think or feel about the war.


It wasn't about the war. It was about American men that gave their lives for their country. Nice dodge but it does not hold water.

Good Night...
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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