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LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?

The refusal of Germans to join the military.


Agreed, but not one of the choices.

Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers?


The point of the question is to illustrate the fallacy of the notion that what has worked in the past under one set of circumstances would work under a very different set of circumstances.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
TonyB2009
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On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. Smile
[/quote]

I don't know what your obsession is with pants and subways, and whether I wear a pants or not. That is your personal picadillo, and perhaps you should keep it personal. As for Chris Kyle, I don't have an issue with him because he is an American soldier who kills the enemies of the United States. I have an issue with him because he was a deeply flawed individual, a proven liar, a conscienceless killer, and a nasty piece of work. And that is judging him on his own words.

As for the victims of the Vietnam War, dying in Vietnam does not automatically make you a hero. Some of the dead were heroes, some were nasty pricks the world is better off without (remember My Lai). Most were ordinary grunts conscripted into a war they had no stake in. If you don't understand that, the problem is with you not with Landmark or any of the others here. When I think of Vietnam heroes I think of Muhammad Ali and others who risked jail and disgrace, career suicide, to opt out of a conflict that they felt was morally wrong.

What makes someone an enemy of the USA? Your foreign policy. The Viet Cong never attacked America. The Iraqis were not involved in 9/11. In many cases you choose your enemies. They didn't attack you. And they are not all sub-human savages, as Kyle believed.
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On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins.

Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison.
Kabbalah
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.


First, there are 58,272 names on the VVM.

And, the peace movement had NOTHING to do with eliminating any names from that wall...unless you count the cowards who evaded or eluded service.

Remind me...how did the 1972 election work out for the peace movement?

Oh, that's right - George McGovern won ONE state!
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Kabbalah
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.



In Los Angeles you have criminals and gang bangers out of control.

Don't throw in the red herring gun control garbage.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
landmark
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On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, what would have stopped Hitler faster, a hunger strike or students standing in front of his tanks?

The refusal of Germans to join the military.


Agreed, but not one of the choices.

Then what is the point of the question, if you're going to restrict the answers?


The point of the question is to illustrate the fallacy of the notion that what has worked in the past under one set of circumstances would work under a very different set of circumstances.


Like fighting pointless wars?

I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread. But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.

Gene Sharp's amazing historical research on that question used to be available for free on the Internet, I'll see if I can find a link. As I said before, I'm not a pacifist, but I think non-violent methods of resistance can be very powerful.

But more directly, hunger strikes and students in front of tanks are not the only forms of non-violent resistance. Refusal to serve is one more tactic. And it is not one or the other. Usually in a non-violent campaign many tactics are used at once, sometimes even while other violent tactics are used by others. The non-violent actions of the Danes (notwithstanding the false story about the king sporting a yellow star) give some indication of the range of possibilities:

"During the summer, several nationwide strikes led to armed confrontations between Danes and German troops. In the wake of increased resistance activities and riots, the German occupation authorities presented the Danish government with an ultimatum on August 28, 1943; they demanded a ban on strikes, a curfew, and the punishment of sabotage with the death penalty.

When Danish civil servants at several levels in different ministries learned of the German plan to round up all Danish Jews, they independently pursued various measures to find the Jews and hide them. Some simply phoned friends and asked them to go through telephone books and warn those with Jewish-sounding names to go into hiding.

Niels Bohr, the Danish physicist whose mother was Jewish, made a determined stand for his fellow countrymen in a personal appeal to the Swedish king and government ministers.[7] He was spirited off to Sweden, whose government arranged immediate transport for him to the United States to work on the then top-secret Manhattan Project. When Bohr touched Swedish soil, government representatives told him he had to board a plane immediately for the United States. Bohr refused. He told the officials, and eventually the king, that until they announced over their air waves and through their press that their borders would be open to receive the Danish Jews, he wasn't going anywhere. Bohr wrote of these events himself.[8] As related by the historian Richard Rhodes,[7] on September 30 Bohr persuaded King Gustaf V of Sweden to make public Sweden’s willingness to provide asylum, and on October 2 Swedish radio broadcast that Sweden was ready to receive the Jewish refugees."

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact.



"The population of Ireland is about 6.4 million. Just under 4.6 million live in the Republic of Ireland and just over 1.8 million live in Northern Ireland." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

The population of Los Angeles county was 10.02 million in 2013.

Quote:

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation



Maybe you're not aware of this, but the troubles in Ireland are sometimes referred to here as an example of the unintended consequences of gun control. You had a group of terrorists that were able to wield extraordinary power and intimidate large numbers of people because... they had guns. And others didn't.

Regardless, qualitatively you're on shaky ground, to say the least, if you compare a reconciliation between the Protestants and Catholics in an ethnically homogenous country to the task at hand in the Middle East, which goes way beyond any Sunni/Shiite issues. If it had stayed an internal Sunni/Shiite conflict, Chris Kyle might have remained a rodeo cowboy.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
landmark
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On Feb 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:

And were it not for the peace movement in the US there would be many more names than just the 55,000 on that wall.


First, there are 58,272 names on the VVM.

And, the peace movement had NOTHING to do with eliminating any names from that wall...unless you count the cowards who evaded or eluded service.

Remind me...how did the 1972 election work out for the peace movement?

Oh, that's right - George McGovern won ONE state!

The end of the Vietnam war was a direct consequence of two things: 1) the underestimation by the US of the determination of the Vietnamese fighting for their land and 2) the peace movement's unrelenting pressure on the domestic side. In 1968, Nixon was so aware of that feeling in the country that he presented himself as the candidate with a secret plan to get us out of Vietnam. The war came to an end in large part because the cost of domestic disturbance at home was too high for the US politicians. In the military itself, there was enormous resistance, too, as I'm sure you remember. Recruits were refusing to take orders, and officers were finding themselves fragged.

What was a small movement in 1963 grew to millions and millions of Americans by 1973. Without the peace movement, that war would have gone on and on, and more American and Vietnamese lives would have been thrown away. By 1973 it became politically infeasible to continue fighting that war. We directly saved thousands and thousands of American lives. I only regret we could not do more, sooner.

I know, you and aces and others feel very strongly about what happened. That's understandable. Awful things happened. Friends got killed. But there are plenty of Viet vets, too, who hated that war and pray that the country never sends American boys to an immoral war like that again. Some of them give back by speaking in schools to young people, telling them of their experiences, and why the romance and dream, and more importantly, the stated purpose of that war was a lie.
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
By the way this individual thinks Chris Kyle had issues because he was an American soldier who killed enemies of The United States of America.. Smile


I don't know what your obsession is with pants and subways, and whether I wear a pants or not. That is your personal picadillo, and perhaps you should keep it personal. As for Chris Kyle, I don't have an issue with him because he is an American soldier who kills the enemies of the United States. I have an issue with him because he was a deeply flawed individual, a proven liar, a conscienceless killer, and a nasty piece of work. And that is judging him on his own words.

As for the victims of the Vietnam War, dying in Vietnam does not automatically make you a hero. Some of the dead were heroes, some were nasty pricks the world is better off without (remember My Lai). Most were ordinary grunts conscripted into a war they had no stake in. If you don't understand that, the problem is with you not with Landmark or any of the others here. When I think of Vietnam heroes I think of Muhammad Ali and others who risked jail and disgrace, career suicide, to opt out of a conflict that they felt was morally wrong.

What makes someone an enemy of the USA? Your foreign policy. The Viet Cong never attacked America. The Iraqis were not involved in 9/11. In many cases you choose your enemies. They didn't attack you. And they are not all sub-human savages, as Kyle believed. [/quote]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha,ha. Sorry for the confusion. The pants and subway does not refer to you. I should have explained. My bad. Here is the topic. By guess who.

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic......forum=32
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acesover
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins.

Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison.


Calif has the toughest gun laws in the country. What are you talking about? According to you that should mean they have the least gun control problems in the U.S. Hmmmmm. Another myth debunked.
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rockwall
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
...


What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws?
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On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that.


Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2.
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On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread.

No, we're not.

Quote:
But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.


I'm not taking it anywhere. I'm directly responding to the reasoning in the last post on page 6.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Feb 2, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Tony, in regards to the carjacking, "reasonable" force could indeed be deadly force. I don't know the full details of the carjacking in question, but generally carjackings occur when the perpetrator puts a gun in the face of a victim. In which case deadly force in response would always be reasonable.

As to comparing the situation in Ireland to the situation in the Middle East - well, we're not even talking about the same things qualitatively or in terms of scope. The situation in Ireland, in terms of absolute numbers, was roughly equivalent to Los Angeles's response to its gang problem, leaving aside the fact that Los Angeles has more people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined. The Middle East troubles have had international repercussions for decades, but became a vital US interest after lower Manhattan was destroyed. You're not even comparing apples and oranges - more like mountains and raisins.

Los Angeles has less people than Ireland and Northern Ireland combined - less people than Ireland alone, in fact. Leaving the factual errors aside, in terms of numbers those killed in Northern Ireland compared to average yearly gang related deaths in Los Angeles, then the figures are comparable. Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.

But this highlights a completely different problem than the one we are discussing. In Los Angeles you have a gun culture wildly out of control. That is something you could sort out in an instant through gun control legislation, which you as a nation don't have the balls to do. Don't blame the rest of the world for that situation, don't throw it in here as a red herring which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The population of the middle east is well over 200 million. Scale up the deaths in the Irish conflict, and the numbers are very comparable. Comparing one political situation to another of a similar nature, but on a bigger scale, is a legitimate comparison. Comparing a political situation to a gang problem, as you did, is a less legitimate and less useful comparison.


The political situations in Ireland and the Middle East are not "of a similar nature."

And you don't understand the United States and Los Angeles nearly as well as you think you do, or as you understand Ireland.

The population issue is a draw; Los Angeles is both a city and a county.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Los Angeles County alone has about 10 million.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
...


What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws?



Smile
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
...


What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws?


Mostly bombs, actually. But illegal assault rifles were also supplied by Libyan and American arms dealers. In the early years, legally owned WWII surplus rifles were the weapon of choice.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
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landmark
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On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
...
If you have, as you claim, read the first chapter, and you haven't spotted the xeonphobia and the casual racism, the fault lies in your level of reading comprehension. There is nothing I can do to help you on that.


Well, I'm not a mind-reader and I wouldn't want to assume what you thought proved Kyle a xenophobe and racist.

Be that as it may, I can only think of 3 reasons why someone would make a claim that something he read proves Kyle was a xenophobe and racist but not be willing to provide that quote.

1. They're a liar and didn't actually read any of the book.

2. They realize that what they read doesn't actually prove what they claim it proves and so, they're still a liar.

3. They read something that didn't prove what they claimed it proves but in their fevered and politicized imagination and their own lack of reading comprehension, they think that it does.

Now, I don't really think it's number 1 and seeing as how you're a 'writer' and all, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with reading comprehension, so I'm gonna have to go with #2.

Or 4. Typing a whole chapter into a little green box is time consuming.
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On Feb 2, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
... Roughly twice as many killed in the Irish situation per head of population per year.
...


What? Were they all killed with pairing knives? Or didn't Ireland have tough gun control laws?


Mostly bombs, actually. But illegal assault rifles were also supplied by Libyan and American arms dealers. In the early years, legally owned WWII surplus rifles were the weapon of choice.


If only they'd made bombs illegal years earlier.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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On Feb 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
I think now we're in a somewhat different discussion from the two or three happening in this thread.

No, we're not.

Quote:
But I'm fine talking about the effectiveness of non-violent resistance tactics in different situations, if that's where you want to take it.


I'm not taking it anywhere. I'm directly responding to the reasoning in the last post on page 6.

It seems to me that you and Tony are talking about the effectiveness of diplomacy and negotiating with the enemy, not non-violent resistance.

My reading of the Irish situation--and I'm admittedly not well-versed on it--is that after decades and decades of fighting, the majority population on both sides were very weary of fighting and killing and dying. This led to an opportunity--the majority on both sides demanded that their leaders sit down and negotiate.

I don't think the Middle East situation is the same, though it may become that. In the Middle East,the most important things the US can do is to stop supporting fanatic fundamentalist governments like Saudi Arabia and the UAE and Bahrain, call Israel and Egypt out when they violate international law, and stop the US mass manufacture of terrorists through torture programs, arming of groups whose politics they don't understand, and the drone bombing of civilians.
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