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Michael Daniels
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"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master — that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

[Through the Looking Glass, 1872]

Mike
Dannydoyle
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I am glad I am not smart enough to be played by these things.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I really want to know.

Yes, but just barely.
stoneunhinged
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Mike, I'm not trying to misuse words. Whether we call it faith or belief or coconuts, it remains a fact that we must make an assumption regarding the efficacy of reason in order to properly use it.

It's a choice I myself make--I am a philosopher, not a priest. But I am conscious that it is a choice, and respect the intelligence of those who make a different choice.

I do not find it strange at all to say that I believe--or have faith--in reason. But I'm a strange guy. Smile
Michael Daniels
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Mike, I'm not trying to misuse words. Whether we call it faith or belief or coconuts, it remains a fact that we must make an assumption regarding the efficacy of reason in order to properly use it.
...
I do not find it strange at all to say that I believe--or have faith--in reason. But I'm a strange guy. Smile


I actually agree with you. I too have faith in reason and in the principle of evidence, and am not embarrassed to say so.

The problem comes when this choice is then used as an argument for philosophical or metaphysical relativism - i.e., the argument that as this is a personal choice therefore any other personal belief is equally valid (e.g., a belief in fairies, or in the impossibility of fairies).

Mike
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Mike, I'm not trying to misuse words. Whether we call it faith or belief or coconuts, it remains a fact that we must make an assumption regarding the efficacy of reason in order to properly use it.

It's a choice I myself make--I am a philosopher, not a priest. But I am conscious that it is a choice, and respect the intelligence of those who make a different choice.

I do not find it strange at all to say that I believe--or have faith--in reason. But I'm a strange guy. Smile


Unless you only concern yourself with objective reality, then no assumptions are necessary.

It's too bad you're not a priest. You'd have $ucce$$ful.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
stoneunhinged
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Yeah, I'm sometimes disappointed that I didn't get the calling....

But I disagree that there is any "objective reality" without identifying those terms, and we must rely upon language--and the belief that language represents objective reality--to express or communicate any understanding of what objective reality might be and how our perception of it might be valid.

Oh, and Mike? I am a thoroughgoing non-relativist.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Ah, but are there any thoughts in which we can have complete confidence? Or at least significantly more confidence that we do for all the others?

Descartes claimed that he could doubt that 2+3=5. I'm not convinced.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
S2000magician
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On Jan 28, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Descartes claimed that he could doubt that 2+3=5. I'm not convinced.

René was shrewder than average.
Johannes L.
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, John Linden wrote:
Please tell me your definition of science and also on belief and I can answer. Smile


No no. The burden is on you, not me. We aren't debating my own definitions. Who cares about my definitions? I'm asking others what they think. I know what I myself think. How boring to have a conversation with oneself!


But I answer based on other peoples definitions.

Otherwise my answer can get misinterpreted.
The Rain Man Glimpse

Effect: The mentalist memorize any kind of information in less than a second. $5
Michael Daniels
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On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Oh, and Mike? I am a thoroughgoing non-relativist.


Ah, the challenge of post-postmodernism - how to be non-relativist yet not a fundamentalist.

Mike
TomBoleware
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Science is not always final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow. Time changes many things.

That’s why some smart man finally figured out that you can’t count your chickens before they hatch.

Tom
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Ray Tupper.
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On Jan 28, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
That’s why some smart man finally figured out that you can’t count your chickens before they hatch.

Thanks to science and the development of the Xray, apparently you can.
Smile
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
Johannes L.
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The more you know the less you know.
The Rain Man Glimpse

Effect: The mentalist memorize any kind of information in less than a second. $5
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Ray Tupper. wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
That’s why some smart man finally figured out that you can’t count your chickens before they hatch.

Thanks to science and the development of the Xray, apparently you can.
Smile



Good point Smile but even that has its limits.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Michael Daniels wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Oh, and Mike? I am a thoroughgoing non-relativist.


Ah, the challenge of post-postmodernism - how to be non-relativist yet not a fundamentalist.

Mike


:)

I am tempted to suggest that such a challenge might be met by returning to the ancients, but I would be accused of Straussianism.

Regarding definitions: by "science" I usually mean what philosphers used to call "natural philosophy." By "belief" or "faith" I mean "holding something to be true." I'm not a complicated guy.

Regarding Descartes: remember that I'm not a Cartesian. The mathematical example is a good one, however, because mathematics brings us back to Gödel--and no one commented on Gödel.

I once read a fascinating discussion on Gödel over at Randi's forum. I forget what the forum is called these days.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Michael Daniels wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Oh, and Mike? I am a thoroughgoing non-relativist.


Ah, the challenge of post-postmodernism - how to be non-relativist yet not a fundamentalist.

Mike

Smile

I am tempted to suggest that such a challenge might be met by returning to the ancients, but I would be accused of Straussianism.

Regarding definitions: by "science" I usually mean what philosphers used to call "natural philosophy." By "belief" or "faith" I mean "holding something to be true." I'm not a complicated guy.

Regarding Descartes: remember that I'm not a Cartesian. The mathematical example is a good one, however, because mathematics brings us back to Gödel--and no one commented on Gödel.

I once read a fascinating discussion on Gödel over at Randi's forum. I forget what the forum is called these days.

I've commented on - and cited - Gödel many times here; you know that.

One can be a Cartesian mathematically with out being a Cartesian philosophically, no?

Remember what Hofstadter wrote: cogito ergo am: I think, therefore I sum.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
I've commented on - and cited - Gödel many times here; you know that.

One can be a Cartesian mathematically with out being a Cartesian philosophically, no?

Remember what Hofstadter wrote: cogito ergo am: I think, therefore I sum.


Agreed on all points. But then again, I'm not sure that you were ever my opponent in these matters. Smile
Magnus Eisengrim
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Do you still giggle when you say "Gödel"?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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No. But it takes me an inordinately long time to say, "Hofstadter."
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