The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The lottery of birth (10 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Well John do you prefer a screw you get out of the lifeboat because too many who look like you are already in attitude?


Imagine a large lifeboat with a hundred seats. A hundred people get on the boat. Imagine, further, each seat represents 1% of the nation's wealth and each person represents 1% of the nation's population.

Then, if the 1% rich own 40% of the wealth--as they do in this country-- that means, by analogy, 1 person gets to take up 40 of those seats. The other 99 people have to scramble for a piece of the other 60 remaining seats.

So Bill Gates will not drown even if he gives up 35 of his seats.


That would be a great illustration IF like a single lifeboat with 100 seats there was a fixed amount of money available in the world. Since that's not true, it kinda sucks as an illustration.

Imagine instead an ulimited number of potential lifeboats that 'could' be built but 50% of the people aren't interested in helping build them, only in using them.


Do "potential lifeboats" really help anyone? Some 750 million people lack access to a stable supply of clean drinking water. The fact that maybe if we continue to create wealth, then they might have clean water some day really help anyone?

Good thing we have waterbottles in our lifeboat.


Which is why we should be thankful for that one percenter Bill Gates who has probably done more than any other individual to help supply clean drinking water to those who need it. I've got nothing against helping those less fortunate than oneself. That's called charity. If I force YOU to help others less fortunate, that's not charity.
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:
... While studies have shown that conservatives are much more generous at donations to charity, ...


Quote:
On Feb 3, 2015, landmark wrote:
...
Wrong. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonk......arities/


Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
...

Michele Margolis and Michael Sances note that Brooks' conclusion [i.e. conservatives give more] comes from a dataset that doesn't really ask how conservative people are politically so much as how conservative they are socially.
...


Thank you for coming around landmark. While you initially claimed that I was 'Wrong' when I said, 'studies have shown that conservatives are much more generous at donations to charity', I see that you were able to find a reference to one of those studies. (Brooks).
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Ah, I see. So from now on when you say, "studies show..." what you really mean is "flawed studies show..." Thanks for the clarification.

It would certainly save time, however, if you included the modifier "flawed" (as in, Wrong) from the beginning.
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
1) Illustration, as it helps to have an easily imagined visual when thinking about these things. We can use ten chairs and ten people too. One rich person (much less of course) takes up 4 chairs while the other 9 have to scramble for a piece of the remaining 6 chairs.

2) Danny was distraught that some rich people might get screwed out of the lifeboat. My Bill Gates remark was to reassure him that Bill would land on his feet. He'd still have plenty of room in that lifeboat, even if wealth were substantially re-distributed.

3) Practical how of it? Start with taxing capital gains at the same level as income tax, get rid of the Social Security rich person entitlement discount, enact a stock transfer tax. And for Lord's sake, stop boo-hooing that then you'll only be able to afford ten mansions instead of twenty.



Doesn't all of this talk assume there is only one pie and it has to be divvied up. The economy, resources and wealth creation can be limitless.

So no problem with the deficit, then.
The Hermit
View Profile
Loyal user
298 Posts

Profile of The Hermit
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
1) Illustration, as it helps to have an easily imagined visual when thinking about these things. We can use ten chairs and ten people too. One rich person (much less of course) takes up 4 chairs while the other 9 have to scramble for a piece of the remaining 6 chairs.

2) Danny was distraught that some rich people might get screwed out of the lifeboat. My Bill Gates remark was to reassure him that Bill would land on his feet. He'd still have plenty of room in that lifeboat, even if wealth were substantially re-distributed.

3) Practical how of it? Start with taxing capital gains at the same level as income tax, get rid of the Social Security rich person entitlement discount, enact a stock transfer tax. And for Lord's sake, stop boo-hooing that then you'll only be able to afford ten mansions instead of twenty.



Doesn't all of this talk assume there is only one pie and it has to be divvied up. The economy, resources and wealth creation can be limitless.

So no problem with the deficit, then.


Landmark's solutions have been proven to inhibit investment and job creation. I don't know what the SS rich person discount is. Everyone pays SS, everyone should get it regardless of how much money you make. It's forced retirement savings. The deficit has nothing to do with it. That is caused by government spending more money than it takes in. If government did like it's citizens and lived on what it has, we wouldn't have one. It's an artificial debt that is created by politicians paying off constituents for votes in most cases. And, the deficit is really only an issue when looked at as perentage of GDP. Our GDP is growing and the ability to finance is under control. The government can run deficits forever as long as wealth is growing in the private sector. That's what they do to manage it. Wealth creation is limitless, unfortunately the ability to tax it is too. We have no competition to government in the US. In Switzerland, taxes are by local canton/state. They can raise and lower to attract investment and they do. Local money is used locally. Same thing happens in US states, but the Federal government taxes again to run often redundant services.
The Hermit
View Profile
Loyal user
298 Posts

Profile of The Hermit
The main supplier of money to states is the Fed. Onerous Fed taxes are taken and some is returned to the states to do the things the Fed wants them to do. If we had higher state taxes and lower federal, we would have lower deficits.
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Well John do you prefer a screw you get out of the lifeboat because too many who look like you are already in attitude?


Imagine a large lifeboat with a hundred seats. A hundred people get on the boat. Imagine, further, each seat represents 1% of the nation's wealth and each person represents 1% of the nation's population.

Then, if the 1% rich own 40% of the wealth--as they do in this country-- that means, by analogy, 1 person gets to take up 40 of those seats. The other 99 people have to scramble for a piece of the other 60 remaining seats.

So Bill Gates will not drown even if he gives up 35 of his seats.


That would be a great illustration IF like a single lifeboat with 100 seats there was a fixed amount of money available in the world. Since that's not true, it kinda sucks as an illustration.

Imagine instead an ulimited number of potential lifeboats that 'could' be built but 50% of the people aren't interested in helping build them, only in using them.


Do "potential lifeboats" really help anyone? Some 750 million people lack access to a stable supply of clean drinking water. The fact that maybe if we continue to create wealth, then they might have clean water some day really help anyone?

Good thing we have waterbottles in our lifeboat.


In the United States, education (even in impoverished areas), might be considered a "potential lifeboat." If A and B grow up in the same low-income environment, and A studies hard, stays in school, and parlays his education into a decent job and elevates his economic circumstance to, let's say, the middle class, while B drops out of school, has kids he can't afford, turns to crime and as a result becomes less employable, the "potential lifeboat" didn't help B, (that's why it was only a potential lifeboat), but it could have. Yes, B had it tougher than most, but is it really accurate to say or suggest (as some no doubt would) that because of those circumstances, B never really had a chance?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Ah, I see. So from now on when you say, "studies show..." what you really mean is "flawed studies show..." Thanks for the clarification.

It would certainly save time, however, if you included the modifier "flawed" (as in, Wrong) from the beginning.


Well, if you wanted to discuss which studies were flawed, that would be a whole nuther discussion, now wouldn't it?
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
1) Illustration, as it helps to have an easily imagined visual when thinking about these things. We can use ten chairs and ten people too. One rich person (much less of course) takes up 4 chairs while the other 9 have to scramble for a piece of the remaining 6 chairs.

2) Danny was distraught that some rich people might get screwed out of the lifeboat. My Bill Gates remark was to reassure him that Bill would land on his feet. He'd still have plenty of room in that lifeboat, even if wealth were substantially re-distributed.

3) Practical how of it? Start with taxing capital gains at the same level as income tax, get rid of the Social Security rich person entitlement discount, enact a stock transfer tax. And for Lord's sake, stop boo-hooing that then you'll only be able to afford ten mansions instead of twenty.



Doesn't all of this talk assume there is only one pie and it has to be divvied up. The economy, resources and wealth creation can be limitless.

So no problem with the deficit, then.


Unfortunately, one thing the government doesn't create is wealth.
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
But the government raises money from the available wealth.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20518 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
It confiscates money.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20518 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Give your water bottle to others. Give YOUR seat to others. Don't tell me what I am obligated to do with mine.


Don't tell the rest of the world what to do, Danny.

You might believe that greedily holding on to anything you've got your hands on to be the most ethical thing. Why should you impose your will on others?


All I am doing is keeping what I have EARNED and you call that greedy?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, landmark wrote:
Ah, I see. So from now on when you say, "studies show..." what you really mean is "flawed studies show..." Thanks for the clarification.

It would certainly save time, however, if you included the modifier "flawed" (as in, Wrong) from the beginning.


Well, if you wanted to discuss which studies were flawed, that would be a whole nuther discussion, now wouldn't it?

Quite right. So now we've established that when you refer to a study in an argument to back your case, you are actually making no judgment as to its truth value. That was a little difficult for me to get used to at first, but now I understand.
rockwall
View Profile
Special user
762 Posts

Profile of rockwall
As we have also established that when you say Wrong!, you're talking about yourself, not the person you're commenting on.
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20518 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Do to be clear I follow all the rules and do everything according to law and I am greedy because I keep my earnings?

So naturally John you must have no more than bare minimum to get by. Otherwise it seems hypocritical to call me greedy.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
View Profile
Inner circle
Sulla placed heads on
1064 Posts

Profile of Magnus Eisengrim
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:

In the United States, education (even in impoverished areas), might be considered a "potential lifeboat." If A and B grow up in the same low-income environment, and A studies hard, stays in school, and parlays his education into a decent job and elevates his economic circumstance to, let's say, the middle class, while B drops out of school, has kids he can't afford, turns to crime and as a result becomes less employable, the "potential lifeboat" didn't help B, (that's why it was only a potential lifeboat), but it could have. Yes, B had it tougher than most, but is it really accurate to say or suggest (as some no doubt would) that because of those circumstances, B never really had a chance?


I absolutely agree with the first part of your response. Social programs such as education are very important to any sort of social justice/equality.
As you note, there still remains much that is unpredictable. The best we can do is to work to reduce the risks and increase the likelihood of a good life.

It's not simple. Not by any means.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
NYCTwister
View Profile
Loyal user
267 Posts

Profile of NYCTwister
What I'm getting from this is despite differing opinions, everyone seems to agree that there are enough resources available, they just aren't being used properly.

Which leads to the question where is the money being wasted? I think the answer is obvious to all.

All solutions that might lead to a proper correcting of the imbalances that DO exist involve acts of creation, not destruction. Until the vast resources now being used for violence and war are used for peaceful and constructive purposes the cycle of destruction will never stop.

It may have been true that at one point if you lost the "birth lottery" your chances of rising above your situation were practically non-existent, and in some cases may still be still be that way today, but it certainly doesn't have to be that way.

So how do we go about changing the way resources are used from destructive purposes to constructive purposes?

Otherwise we may find that those seats on the lifeboats are all taken by the few very wealthy people holding extremely powerful weapons, to be used on the masses trying to get in those lifeboats. The result being that the lifeboats are sunk and no one is saved.

(I really hate analogies Smile )
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
Which leads to the question where is the money being wasted? I think the answer is obvious to all.

I would say, not obvious to all. It is much contested. Better to be specific here. One person's waste is another's treasure or necessity.
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
5015 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2015, rockwall wrote:
As we have also established that when you say Wrong!, you're talking about yourself, not the person you're commenting on.


Yes, I admitted I was wrong. I thought when you quoted a study to back up your statement, you considered it truthful, and you assumed that people who read it would take it as truthful. I was wrong. You have correctly disabused me of that notion. I stand corrected. In the future, I will understand that such statements are not to be taken as actual arguments, but mere comments about the existence of a study, truthful or not. Who knows, perhaps one day you will actually address the issue. Stranger things have happened.
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16199 Posts

Profile of tommy
The problem the peasants have is they are not climate experts and so they cannot understand anything.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The lottery of birth (10 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.22 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL