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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Table hoppers & party strollers » » Please take a second to answer my poll (13 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MeetMagicMike
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Ahem...Watch the exposure Jay Smile
Magic Mike

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warren
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Quote:
On Mar 15, 2015, MeetMagicMike wrote:
I can easily argue with that logic too. I chided Rick Lax for exposing a certain set of gimmicked coins on Penguin's site. I respect Rick and he replied graciously but I think he went too far in that case.

I wonder if the people who think that Prop Dog's exposure is ok have really watched the video. He went into far far more detail than was necessary by any stretch if the imagination.

The idea that people would have to Google the actual name of a trick to find it might have been true 10 years ago but search engines are incredible now. Googling Card to walled might not bring this video to the top today but it won't be long.

(Oh and Warren clearly stated in the other thread that he was going to start a poll in another thread and why)

The reason I started this poll was because I was shocked that people thought it was Ok for the magician / dealer I mentioned to expose our art and even accused me of having a vendetta against that person. The funny thing is I posted this in the secret sessions section now let's think about that one for a minute why do we have a secret sessions section ?
Ken Northridge
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Quote:
On Mar 15, 2015, MattyWhipple wrote:
I think it was Lance Burton who's theory was that purposely exposing our methods forces us to create new methods and thereby ensures the continued evolution and survival of our craft.

This was the Masked Magician’s theory too.

My answer to the poll is: NO
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Terrible Wizard
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I'm not a pro, I'm an amateur. But it's still very dispiriting to spend money and time on a trick only to be met with a flat response because, "Oh, I know this one" Or, even worse, have a loudmouth tell everyone nearby how the trick is done because they saw it on ytube.

This doesn't happen often (or at least, it hasn't happened often to me), but when it does it's pretty horrible. We can't eliminate exposure, but we don't have to make it worse.
J-Mac
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Dave's "exposure" doesn’t bother me at all. I personally do not believe that non-magicians are going to his site and watching his videos. Actually I don’t believe that many - IF ANY - non-magicians have any desire to visit his site and watch videos about how magic is done. Magicians apparently are quite paranoid if that is what they fear!

I do believe that if someone has some interest in magic they might come across Dave's website - in which case they might learn something - or at least be prodded to learn something. But I truly cannot see folks flocking to that website to learn the forbidden secrets they have sought all their lives. Ridiculous.

@jay leslie: Your post about handing out directions and telling your audience the details of what you plan to perform ahead of time? That is ludicrous, not at all related to the topic here, and is obviously meant to be inflammatory. Please stay within reason. If you really think that any of your spectators may visit the Propdog site to suss out your secrets, then attend your show and... well, I'm not certain what you fear the next step would be, but I don’t see it happening. I don’t envision mobs of curious people wasting their time to lurk at magic websites hoping to learn secrets. If they have that much interest they are probably hoping to either learn magic or be entertained by it. I don’t see them "stealing our secrets" for some other nefarious reasons - like just to spoil our performances. What else can they do with it? Our work isn't that important to lay people.

Thank you.

Jim
jay leslie
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Absoultly 100 percent related
Time has no meaning when you learn something.

This has nothing to do with a lay person stealing our ideas - it has everything to do with spending your time learning a secret and how to present it.
warren
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I'm with you 100 percent Jay and just for the record Jim as I may have already said I performed a coin trick for a lad aged 18 when I saw him again a week later he told me that he still couldn't figure out how I did it and that he had tried both google and youtube so your only kidding yourself if you think that people don't try and find things out.

As I mentioned earlier also if its fine to expose our art why is there a secret sessions section ? why when someone goes in to a little to much detail are they told to please discuss it in the secret sessions section, as mentioned a simple password is all it takes is that to much to ask from a professional surely not.

Its nice to see that the vast majority have principles and still believe that our trade secrets shouldn't be given away so freely no matter what the smaller minority think Smile
Kabbalah
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Warren,

David has answered you personally in your thread in Secret sessions.

Why not address your issues with the man you are accusing?
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
MeetMagicMike
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Kabbalah,

Warren isn't so much accusing the person at Prop Dog of something. It is agreed that he posted a video giving away the workings of the JOL wallet (and more). This is not in dispute.

Warren feels that this is clearly gratuitous exposure and wanted to know how other magicians felt about it.
Magic Mike

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Kabbalah
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MeetMagicMike,

Did you read warren's post in Secret sessions?

Quote:
On Mar 13, 2015, warren wrote:
Having come across Dave Bonsalls website Propdog which is a site anyone can access I was disgusted to find him exposing classic effects openly via his video descriptions of his products for example he totally exposes the workings of the JOL wallets why would a professional magician do this ?

I personally don't know any magic dealers that expose the effects that they sell I'm totally amazed by it tut tut shame on him he should know better !!


You don't find this accusatory?
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
Kabbalah
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Here is a salient point from David Bonsall's reply to warren:

Quote:
On Mar 16, 2015, Bonz wrote:

Obviously it would not be right to give too much away about other people’s products, but as we now own the JOL company, I felt I owe it to my customers to let them know what they are getting before they buy. The last thing I want is for a customer to get ‘jiffy bag’ rage about one of my products. If I had my way, then customers would have an opportunity to see EXACTLY what they are buying before they pay. I am fed up with misleading trailers and some of the crap that is being released these days. Misrepresentation of products in this way would never be accepted in other industries and may well be seen as fraudulent! So forgive me for trying to be honest here.

Dave Bonsall


I applaud Mr. Bonsall!
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
Poof-Daddy
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And for those who never leave this section or go "downstairs" here is his full response

Quote:
On Mar 16, 2015, Bonz wrote:
Hi Guys & hello Warren!

First of all Warren, at least please give me the common courtesy of having the time to reply to your email before you launch a personal attack upon me and my business!

I did receive and read your first email and it was a very complimentary and polite email, for which I thank you.
However you have to understand that I am an incredibly busy man, I work 100+ hours a week and I receive well over 3000 emails a week! Being this busy I have to prioritize the order in which I reply to emails, especially as my staff do not work weekends, so it’s an even busier time for me . My customer order emails ALWAYS being first and foremost, advice email/enquires second and so on. So a complaint email such as yours, as nicely worded as it was, I’m afraid goes to the bottom of the priority pile, it’s not a personal thing Warren, there’s just not enough time in a day.

So I was a little surprised to receive yet another email just a few days later asking why I had not replied and even more surprised to find that you’re publicly slating me and bringing my good business name into disrepute by entitling a thread as ‘Dave Bonsall Exposing Effect’, people who don’t read this thread, may remember this as something else. This is very misleading and slanderous Warren! I am busy enough as it is without having to deal with all this and yes, I do feel you are launching some kind of personal attack against me as you have felt the need to voice your opinion/concern about this on multiple other threads too!

Now, regarding the subject in hand; I am a very honest dealer and am not doing this for the money! If it was about the money, then I would still be performing full time, I don’t take a single penny from the company and I’ve never had less money than I do now, but it’s a new business, that’s expected. So please be aware I’m not exposing for the profit!
It is in fact the exact opposite. I have sold many wallets from other manufactures, that do not have a video such as mine accompanying it. I have also received many complaints, comments and refund requests because the wallets either, could not do what the trailer said, or the wallet was just too unworkable. This isn’t just limited to wallets of course, but many products that are released nowadays.

Obviously it would not be right to give too much away about other people’s products, but as we now own the JOL company, I felt I owe it to my customers to let them know what they are getting before they buy. The last thing I want is for a customer to get ‘jiffy bag’ rage about one of my products. If I had my way, then customers would have an opportunity to see EXACTLY what they are buying before they pay. I am fed up with misleading trailers and some of the crap that is being released these days. Misrepresentation of products in this way would never be accepted in other industries and may well be seen as fraudulent! So forgive me for trying to be honest here.

But do I feel like I am really exposing a trick? No I don’t. You say that when you purchase a trick, you are paying for the secret. Well yes and no. Most of the time you are, but with a wallet, you are not paying for the secret, you are paying for the prop, the quality of the wallet and the workmanship that goes into it.
It is a ‘card to wallet’ wallet, we all know that and it says that it is in the product description. Should I remove any information that says it’s a card to wallet? Stating this, according to your argument, would also be exposing it. If one of your lay audience were to some how track down the exact wallet you are using, and it says it was a ‘card to wallet’ wallet, but it had no video. Then they would still know that this wallet would somehow let you put a card in it without being seen. Just because a video shows you, it does not change the fact that the person would know that it is the secret wallet.

I would also challenge you to perform this to any laypeople and then challenge them to search the net to find out the secret. I can almost guarantee you that they will not as I have tried it myself several times! So I do not personally feel that I am doing anything wrong here. It’s just a simple honest video showing you what you are getting for you money. If you really feel that you can no longer perform with your wallet, then by all means send it to me and I will give you a complete refund even though you have had it for 10 years!

I am a professional performer and earn my entire living, solely from performing. I also perform with a JOL wallet that has been ‘exposed’ on my website. I am 100% comfortable with this and do not feel it harms my performance in the minutest way! Do you really think that I would expose anything that would affect my living?

If I felt that any video was exposing too much, then I will password protect it as I have done with the video for Paul’s Balls on the website.

So Warren, I hope this clears up my point of view on the subject and I also understand and respect your point of view too. You are completely entitled to your opinion, but I would respectfully request that you stop personally slating me and stop bringing my business, that I have worked so hard to develop, into disrepute!

Dave Bonsall
Cancer Sux - It is time to find a Cure

Don't spend so much time trying not to die that you forget how to live - H's wife to H on CSI Miami (paraphrased).






Smile Smile
warren
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Lol and here was my response Smile

Warren most certainly has not been put in his box, Dave if I put card to hip wallet in google and click the 8th link down it takes me straight to your video so on that point you are wrong.
You are entitled to run your business anyway you see fit but exposure is exposure no matter how you try and gift wrap it up as ive said a simple password would negate all of this but obviously you don't really care about our art strongly enough to protect it.

I wish you well but my opinion is still the same and judging by my poll where I didn't mention you by name many others feel the same so shame on you for not taking your oath seriously unless that is you don't belong to a magical society

And to add to it any magician that openly exposes magic should be ashamed of themselves so shame on all of you that condone it....do you think the magic castle condones exposure no.....do you think the likes of Dai Vernon would condone exposure no and anyone that says different is just kidding themselves.

My favourite part of Daves response was "I would also challenge you to perform this to any laypeople and then challenge them to search the net to find out the secret. I can almost guarantee you that they will not as I have tried it myself several times!" as I have proved on my very first go but for the hard of hearing just put in google card to hip wallet click the 8th link down and bingo which proves Dave to be not quite as truthful as he would have you believe so shame on him !! Password protect our secrets then will have nothing to moan about its that simple.
davidpaul$
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Smile
If you can't help worrying, remember worrying can't help you!
MeetMagicMike
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David is just wrong to think that Warren is slating him or accusing him. Warren is pointing out that he is doing exactly what he is doing. There is no debate there.

Yes, Warren doesn't like it and finds it disgusting. That is not accusing him that is stating how he feels about exposing the workings of the wallet.

The JOL wallet may be his but there are many aspects of the technique that are shared by other wallets. Did Prop Dog invent gimmicked envelopes?

I like Mr Bonsall. He runs a great company but in my opinion he is going way to far.

Let me ask this to the supporters of this video:

Would there be any point at all where you would say a dealer was exposing too much? Would you not have any problem with a dealer posting videos of the workings of every trick he sold?

In other words are you saying Prop Dog has not crossed the line or are you saying there is no line at all?
Magic Mike

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warren
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Exactly....well sad Mike I challenge anyone to watch the video and then tell me its not exposure. Come on Dave do the right thing and take the video down or password protect it.
bowers
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My vote is no also.
Todd
Ross W
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I think most of us feel at least little protective towards "the secrets" and are disappointed by exposure, especially by kids on YouTube giving "tutorials" for stuff they perform badly, or for stuff that is not theirs to expose.

But where is the evidence for actual 'harm'? The internet/www is thirty years old. Twenty or so in practical terms, and debates of this nature go back to the days of Ray Haddad and Mitch Whatsisname slugging it out on alt-magic. Yet if the exposure of magic tricks really had such a devastating effect on our craft, we'd all be out of business or pursuing another hobby.

In fact, magic is more popular than ever. Walk-around at parties thrives, magic on TV thrives, and so on. I don't perform as much as many here, but it's still very rare for me to hear of someone going and looking up a trick after witnessing a performance. And if they do, so what? So they're a geek who was so mystified that they went online and searched for how it was done. Big deal. Five or ten years on, can any punter remember a single one of The Masked Magician's exposes?

Pepka has it right: the magic is far more to do with our performance than with some tricky prop.
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Terrible Wizard
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Rare. But it happens. And it's really horrible when it directly affects a performance of a trick. Besides, even though magic is doing well, it's impossible to measure how better it could have been doing sans exposure. You just can't measure such a thing.
AdamChance
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Fighting a battle against magic exposure on the internet is a battle you just can't win. Do something more constructive with your time.
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