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Eddie Garland Inner circle Hells Kitchen, New York City 4207 Posts |
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On Mar 25, 2015, reese wrote: Comedy and Tragedy. |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
RCP,
I have met strippers, exotic dancers, and the pole dancer. they are not one and the same. each has a set of skills that sets them apart from the others. a stripper is just there to fleece the money out of a mark. the exotic dancer is a dancer that is well versed in the art of seducing the money through extremely erotic movements that are sensual, beautiful and keep with the character and costume being portrayed by the dancer. the pole dancer is extremely acrobatic and relies on the strength that few others in the normal world have. she is a contortionist, a gymnast, a dancer, a seductress, and so much more. I have so much respect for the latter 2 as they have honed their craft to not only be artistic but to be their living. there can be no doubt that they have put in hundreds of hours working on their skills, they can be extremely mesmerizing!............ the first one (the stripper) anyone can do this as there is not a lot of skill involved. you just move around and take off your clothes relying on the fact that someone in the audience MAY find you attractive enough to toss some money at you. obviously the more looks you have the better your odds are. I have actually seen strippers be paid and tipped to put their clothes back on and clear the stage. RCP I am not mocking you here brother just pointing out that in every profession there is a skill set. some will hone it and use it to great advantage while others will grab pieces of it and hack their way through it to eek out a tiny bit of the potential money that can be made from it. they all want the same thing from the skills....money some just choose to work hard and perfect the way they go about it and it shows in the amount they get paid in the end. |
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Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
How do you know all this Michael?????
So the guys Mr. Gray saw were bizarre strippers? And RCP it's all good no one is mocking anyone, it’s all in good fun, interspersed to defuse any tension just like a conversation face to face, but trying to do it through writing which is the problem in forums it rarely comes across properly.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Many years ago I owned a magic shop. we sold magic, jokes, gags, costumes, and in the back room we ran an entertainment agency. I had 105 contractors that I hired out to perform at parties and events. a good chunk of them were exotic dancers. the next big chunk was clowns and character artists that perform for children's parties lol. the smallest % were actual magicians.
back in the day when power rangers and ninja turtles just came out I was performing in costume as one. I have a back ground in martial arts so it was a natural for me. during our children's parties we offered magic, balloon twisting, face painting, and games with prizes..at night I would be the driver/body guard for the dancers........ |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
I totally know the feeling of the guardians attacking anyone who tried to discuss how to take one of the props and artifacts sold in our craft to deeper levels of performance. I tried with lun@, Cuss C@rds, S@nctum and a few others I felt a deeper connection with. I got flamed pretty hard back then so I stopped. I pulled back, I moved to another forum and there started some deeper discussions. a few other forums have been well springs of deeper more emotional content that will impact our participants......sadly not the Café. this has become more of a flee market and a long running commercial, and that's ok. if that meets the needs of those that come here I can get behind that. I actually only come here now to talk to a few friends in PM about different presentation styles and then go to the other forums for honing my craft in a more organic way.
some of the ppeople I have met here come to my house last January for what we called "THE GATHERING OF THE DARK MAGI" IT WAS A FREE GATHERING. THERE WERE NO ITEMS SOLD. there were however lots of items given away. there was huge allotments of time dedicated on how to take a simple picture and turn it into one of the most magical life altering experiences an audience can have. we discussed taking props like LUN@ and using them as a gate way to something more, not just spewing out the hits and then moving on to another trick. the real magic happens when the book is closed and the sitter is opened up like the book she holds in her hand. how she describes something in such vivid detail that when she oopens her eyes to see that she has actually described a picture she jolts and has a huge emotional experience. there are those of us that meet in the shadows and delve into the deeper means of what we do. our little gathering will be held every year. it will never have paid performers. it will never have a vender's section. it will not be a convention. it will always be a gathering where the attendees share and grow together in our craft. so when I see threads that claim that Bizarre is starting to die or that it is not what it used to be I just laugh. true bizarre is still there where it always was. under ground. hiding in the shadows.meeting like the original founding fathers of the craft met. in secrete. not just our gathering either. I know of at least 3 others that I have been invited to that meet regularly every year to have dinner, tip a glass, tell stories, and share their newest horrible creations with each other. is our way the best? no it just meets our needs. the convention style events meets a much broader need for a lot more people. we all take what we want from our craft and run with it. there is no right or wrong way of it. |
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Thank you Michael, now that's a discussion. You are a real world performer that eats (starves) on what works (sells) to your audience (customers). Not an esoteric discussion is it!
Perhaps, I offended some by the stripper analogy but lets be honest….strippers are held in higher regard in many parts of the country than fortune tellers, mystics, ghost hunters or those that purport to speak with the dead. Frankly they are a lot more entertaining than many magic acts I have seen. Discussions shouldn’t be one sided or meant to stroke egos or maintain the status quo. They should be open, frank and at times uncomfortable to those stating their dogma as somehow fact. “What has bizarre magic become? Where is it going? Where has it gone?” Unless you have read every issue of The Invocation, The New Invocation, The Cauldron, Snake Oil Almanac, Krypt’s Quarterly Crier, The Jinx, The New Jinx, Séance, Alter Flame, Magick or everything that Doc Shields, Punx, Max Maven, Eugene Burger, Maskely ye Mage, Christain Chelmman, Prof BC, Borodin, Michael Fraughton, Jim Magus, Larry Kuehn, Larry Baukin, Scott Davis and probably a dozen more whose names I can’t recall do you even know the roots of bizzare magick? It’s a big tent we call bizzare……an art form for some, a hobby for others, a form of entertainment and a way to make a living. So please, I’ll ask again…….with the greatest of respect. “Mr. Gray, I know you to be a sincere person. We meet many years ago at a weekend lecture. I have followed your posts and clearly a MA graduate of the Royal Conservatoire is an accomplishment few bizarrists can claim. In spite of those here that have mocked my brief posts, or have missed the points I made, I find this a fascinating thread. Would you share where you are performing your “pop-up style? Often in a back room, badly lit, with the smell of 'I shouldn't be here' permeating the air. I have a deck of the Marseille Tarot (ungimmicked), four spirit slates (ungimmicked), some blank pieces of paper & some pay envelopes. Depending on what the person's energy is like, I don't decide what I'm going to perform until I've had some time to talk to them. I may only read their palm - or read the cards for them. No performance is ever the same. Everyone that comes in receives a different performance. Each visit lasts roughly 15 minutes.” Or where you perform a truly prop less story telling? Thank you, Craig” |
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Mr Timothy Gray Veteran user Rue d'Auseil 364 Posts |
I honestly don't even know what this thread is about anymore. It dipped & dug (a bit), but it still remains superficial. There's a great deal of clinging to the idea of props (perhaps as security blankets) - when the questions (FOR WHICH I HAVE NO ANSWERS) concern something greater than props. The inability to realize this - & instead, to keep beating away at the proverbial horse - is a clear sign of what the Café has dwindled into.
Perhaps, Darkness, dear boy, are you right. This simply isn't the place to discuss this issue. Additionally, it's not up to me to keep this conversation going. I tossed something out there & it steam-rolled on by itself. That's something at least. Sadly, there's not much concern for art in this thread. In fact, it has been disparaged repeatedly. Does that make me pretentious? Perhaps. But I'd rather be the pretentious & working, respected performer I am now, than a lack-luster, half-hind-ended performer, who relies on superficial, arbitrary concepts. But I am no great thinker - I just hope to offer up something magical, something mystical, something unreal. It isn't about showing off. This is why my performances take place in hidden venues. It is something to be stumbled across, to be discovered down a dark alley. I can't be different or original if I'm performing a marketed routine - in the same kind of venue, in the same king of manner as other bizarrists. (This, I think, is the crux of my initial questions. How original are you if your brothers & sisters are all performing the same thing?) I'm glad to have lit some fires. Should anyone wish to contact me, I await your PM's.
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
Mr Timothy Gray Specializing in the Occult Arts of Fortune Telling, Magic & Mediumship; Est. 1986 |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Wow really? "lack-luster, half-hind-ended performer, who relies on superficial, arbitrary concepts" I wonder what your basing you information on? I know you have never seen me perform....
just because people use the same prop does not mean that they "lack-luster, half-hind-ended performer, who relies on superficial, arbitrary concepts" that is an insulting statement and a assumption on your part with NO supporting facts. this last post was really insulting considering you are making those assumptions the art of bizarre magic and its founders, about people in this forum who you have never met. I can guarantee that has props that I have uses them in the same way I do. if your claiming a high ground because you do not need props then again you assume that we can not perform without anything. I have done so many times over the years. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before but calling everyone here "lack-luster, half-hind-ended performer, who relies on superficial, arbitrary concepts" was uncalled for. you want to prove your point post a video. you are making claims but substantiating none of them. you are calling names and personally attacking people just because they question your assumptions, your motives, and your real ability. for me you just lost all credibility with this kind of attack........ nothing you are saying here is new. it has been said many times before. the difference being not everyone chooses to put their best material or routines up for all to see. that does not mean they do not have them. I have been a working pro in the magic field since the 80's but have been performing and entertaining with magic for over 42 years. I have spent thousands of hours perfecting my craft...not my art but my craft. anyone can spit paint on a canvas and call it art. art is subjective perceptual just as beauty is. a craft is not subjective. it is a skill that is learned and perfected over years to a point of mastery. |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
I would consider "the curator" as a master performer but by your standards he is a "lack-luster, half-hind-ended performer, who relies on superficial, arbitrary concepts" because he is prop heavy in his performance.....the same with Andruzzi, Burger, Shiels, Cameron, Raven and any of the other founders of the ART of BIZARRE magic
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Mr Timothy Gray Veteran user Rue d'Auseil 364 Posts |
Eh... I think you've completely misunderstood my comparison. I wasn't talking about you. It was an either/or situation for myself. Not a direct reference or description of anyone here.
& I rather love that the Café's first defense is 'POST A VIDEO!' I'd rather maintain the ephemeral mystery of my performances for the people who employ me & my prospective audience members.
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
Mr Timothy Gray Specializing in the Occult Arts of Fortune Telling, Magic & Mediumship; Est. 1986 |
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Mr Timothy Gray Veteran user Rue d'Auseil 364 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 25, 2015, Michael_MacDonald wrote: No they can't. I think this has been proven countless times over thousands of years. 'My three-year old could do this' is a lazy, uneducated argument.
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
Mr Timothy Gray Specializing in the Occult Arts of Fortune Telling, Magic & Mediumship; Est. 1986 |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
That does not mean he can not call it art...what is art to him may not be art to you but his opinion is just as valid as your is...his concept of art though different is still his...just as everyone has the right to an opinion without someone coming along and calling them names for being different, and disagreeing
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Mr Timothy Gray Veteran user Rue d'Auseil 364 Posts |
I haven't called anyone names, as I've clarified.
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
Mr Timothy Gray Specializing in the Occult Arts of Fortune Telling, Magic & Mediumship; Est. 1986 |
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YitzhakNoDice Special user Portland, Oregon 517 Posts |
I realise this is a bit of an aside, so bear with me, please. The comment about setting off a line of gimmicked props (like dominos falling) got me thinking. Consider for a moment, that you had some way of getting hits out of a sitter. (A book test chalk full of hits could be an example.) Would you want to list off all the hits one by one until they are all exhausted? Listing off hits like dominos falling? No! You would list off a couple that hit really hard, you would convey the hits with great import and an atmosphere of emotion (for example), and you would preserve the mystery.
We talked about this at some length at the meeting of the Northwest Gathering of Dark Magi in January. We were talking about what I shall dub "unfolding the comprehensive story". Running through a routine extracting hits from your sitters, should not an end unto itself. Rather, in our minds, it should be providing a part of the story, perhaps one or two clues, or a plot element - a PARTIAL unfolding of the comprehensive story. Unlike popping off gimmicked props as one knocks over dominos, unfolding of the comprehensive story should not be hurried. This may sound instinctive, but it took some deep conversation to place it in the forefront in our minds to NOT RUSH IT - to guard against knocking over the dominos all at once - to savour the unfolding.
A wise man's question contains half the answer. - Solomon ben Judah, Philosopher
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Quote:
On Mar 25, 2015, Mr Timothy Gray wrote: and what makes you think we are not saving our best for those that employ us? you just assume that everything here is the sum of what we are as performers. as to the post a video that is so that we as a group can decide if what you do is art or just you claiming a high road while walking on the side walk with the rest. as far as me misunderstanding what you meant that may be, but I can only go by the way you said it. you have been asked numerous times to post what type of venues and situations you perform in, you claim to do something but will not give a single instance or situation where you have done it that way you say. just your word. then you commence put people down for liking the props they buy....most here are collectors and hobbyist performers. they do it because they love it. there is nothing wrong with that. the working pro does not have the luxury of sticking to subjective art. and this is true in many fields. most master painters were not recognized until after their death...they lived poor but their painting sell for millions now... so if your going to make big claims then please by all means show us how we (like you) can give a purely artistic performance and still pay the bills. tell us where, how, why, when, and give provable examples. as for the guys who love thier props let them. its their love and passion who are we to judge them on it? |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Yitzhak,
absolutely, and putting it that way says the same thing he was saying but you are doing it in a way where it is nice and not a put down to others. it is a teaching way. at the gathering we do not have to rely on perception of text and assume the intent, we have tone and visual cues that tell us in what context things should be taken. thank you for posting that as it is well written and proves that just because it is not on the Café does not mean that it is non existant. |
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
And yes, to me personally some of the wonderful props that are out can be used in so many different ways like LUN@ for example. yes it is a gimmick and yes many just list off the hits and then walk away from it and start something new. what we tried to do at the gathering was to show that once you hit a couple points as a convincer, this lets them suspend disbelief in a way that just talking never would. then the fun begins. its not what is written in the book that matters its what happens in the minds of the sitters. the building of mystery. the unfolding of the story.... use the props as a marker or a starting point and go from there.
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Michael_MacDonald 1964 - 2016 Washington 2034 Posts |
Look Mr Gray, I do not know you. if you say I miss understood what you meant I will believe you as only you can know what is in your own mind. it came out as condescending and harsh and the tone was taken that way by a few that read this thread.
the fact that you want more from your performances is a great thing! the fact that you want to have an original style all your own is awesome and should be the end goal of every performer. it normally comes over time with experience and understanding. the people that collect or just do this for fun as a hobby do not need to put as much into their performances. they can focus on the art if they choose but do not really have to as it is nothing more then say stamp collecting for them. while others collect the props for investment. some of these items go for large sums after they go out of print. that is fine for them. it is meeting their needs. the working pro must focus on the business side of things. I would never been able to suport a family of 5 just popping up once in awhile to do secret magic shows.... I have to guarantee a draw for my shows or I do not get paid by the venue. I have to treat it like a business and market it atleast in the beginning or I will starve and so will my family as we live in a card board box. so it is uncompromisable that you can just randomly pop up somewhere, perform naked mentalism with no marketing, and still make enough to support a family or house hold long term. I am all for bettering the art, but as I said, my version of art may differ from yours. that does not make it wrong, just different. |
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Intrepid Inner circle Silver Spring, MD 1177 Posts |
Vision is what separates the artist from the craftman. It is what makes one's work unique.
Bob
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RCP Inner circle Two Minnie's in The Hell's Half Acre, The Republic of Texas 2183 Posts |
Thank you Mr. Gray for your kind response. I wish to politely disagree with your most recent post on three points.
“There's a great deal of clinging to the idea of props” It was your notion that props diminish the art or that those that use props need crutches. FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE SIR! Which movie did you last see that had no music, costumes, sets and yes even props? Those things add (at least should) dimension and interest. Can someone use props poorly, yes of course. “This simply isn't the place to discuss this issue.” Oh, I so disagree kind sir. On the Café you can be sure there are no ego stokers or yes men lurking. You will be held to account with ideas challenged. “But I am no great thinker - I just hope to offer up something magical, something mystical, and something unreal.” Again I must say not true. Your ideas are enormous, challenging, booming with vigor. I concur with Eddie Garland on this! You have the potential to be a rock star sir. A most excellent thread sir, I commend you for the courage to rock the boat. Even in disagreement we are all the better for the discussion. Best regards, Craig |
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