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LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
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On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
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On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Good stuff, Lobo. I have something to think about today,
R.S.
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On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron after they die it’s too late.Smile

Did I mention my number one rule; I don’t have to explain myself to nobody. What’s done is done. Take it or leave it.

Tom


Tom, you're all over the place, so try to stay consistent. Before, in another thread, you said that if you were God you would let me (and other good nonbelievers) into Heaven. So now what do you mean by "too late"? Nonbelievers by definition do not believe at the time of death.

And why wouldn't you have to explain yourself? In fact, wouldn't explaining yourself justify your actions even more?? Wouldn't you (an all-loving being) want people to have a full understanding of how the system works, rather than have them be confused and possibly make wrong decisions?

And lastly, on this whole worship me or be tortured for eternity bit, does that even make sense? Tom, you have said that you have children. If you had a falling out with your own son or daughter - say some disagreement that caused you to be estranged - would you want him/her to be taken away and tortured (or even just imprisoned and isolated) FOREVER AND EVER???? Would you? If you wouldn't do that to your own child, then why would an all-loving being do that to his children? Isn't it more likely that humans created this story during a time of superstition and ignorance in order to keep other humans in line?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
You are having a causal conversation God. You are holding an apple. Now God says to you. I know whether you are going to take a bite of that apple or not. However the choice is yours. But he still knows what your choice will be.

Of course a mentalist can do the same thing with two pieces of paper. One saying your bit the apple and the other saying you did not bite the apple. Smile


That's besides the point. Even if we grant that people themselves truly have free will (this is debatable, but for now we'll say they do), the question is this:

Why would God create beings he KNOWS will only end up being tortured forever, when he (God) had a choice of creating them in the first place? God's "plan" is apparently to create and ultimately torture some humans.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. Smile

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Smile

Tom


Tom, answer this question with a simple yes or no... do you believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Salguod Nairb
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On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead!


Image
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
TomBoleware
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The biggest question is, why do you deserve an explanation from God? Certainly you don’t if you don’t believe he exists.
I would think that the first step to understanding is belief. Until then you just wandering around with your eyes closed
trying to see what others can plainly see.

Can you see with your eyes closed? I don’t think so.

Tom
Kind People Are The Best Kind Of People

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acesover
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On Apr 23, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
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On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf:


If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw.


Smile


Hope all is well with Ian. Hurry back.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
NYCTwister
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On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf:


If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw.


Smile


Hope all is well with Ian. Hurry back.


Whatever the XRSH says as long it stays in the corner.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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On Apr 22, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice. Isn’t it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasn’t learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom


Seriously curious about this.

So, the mentally impaired, who you chose to take the choice away from; and children, who have no choice until a certain age. at which point they are responsible for making choices, get a pass?


?????????
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead!


We're all just still waiting for you to bite after a few others have answered!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.

Can God build a random number generator?
acesover
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On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.

Can God build a random number generator?


BAIT. You make me laugh.

Why not ask if God can make Himself forget? Please let's not be juvenile here.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.

Can God build a random number generator?



Now you're butting right up against the question I find most interesting - Can God build a random number generator which will generate numbers He's previously unaware of? Or to put it another way, Can God be surprised?

My instinct is that in a theistic (Christian, at least) worldview, God would have to able to suspend his own omniscience in order for us to have free will. Otherwise, IMO, we're just super-advanced machines who have mistakenly,ascribed free will to our determined actions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Sep 28, 2013, LobowolfXXX wrote:
A god came to a man
And said to him thus:
"I have an apple
It is a glorious apple
Aye, I swear by my ancestors
Of the eternities before this eternity It is an apple that is from
The inner thoughts of heaven's greatest.
"And this I will hang here
And then I will adjust thee here Thus – you may reach it.
And you must stifle your nostrils And control your hands
And your eyes
And sit for sixty years
But, – leave be the apple."
The man answered in this wise:
"Oh, most interesting God
What folly is this?
Behold, thou hast moulded my desires Even as thou hast moulded the apple.
...



-Stephen Crane
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.

Can God build a random number generator?



Now you're butting right up against the question I find most interesting - Can God build a random number generator which will generate numbers He's previously unaware of? Or to put it another way, Can God be surprised?

My instinct is that in a theistic (Christian, at least) worldview, God would have to able to suspend his own omniscience in order for us to have free will. Otherwise, IMO, we're just super-advanced machines who have mistakenly,ascribed free will to our determined actions.


Please stop shattering people's illusions.

It's not very nice.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

It seems to me that when Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, an omniscient God would have responded, "Why? You **** well know why!" Smile
landmark
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.

Can God build a random number generator?


BAIT. You make me laugh.

Why not ask if God can make Himself forget? Please let's not be juvenile here.

Not trying to bait anyone. Lobo is onto what I'm getting at here. I'm more on your side of this question, actually, aces.
landmark
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On Apr 23, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.


That's an interesting observation, Bob.

The part of the OT that always bothered me was in the Exodus story where it says "God hardened the Pharaoh's heart," each time before the next plague was sent. Why would God take away Pharaoh's free will to let the Israelites go, only to punish him with a new plague for disobedience?
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Y'all know there's no god right?
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