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R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
The biggest question is, why do you deserve an explanation from God? Certainly you don’t if you don’t believe he exists.
I would think that the first step to understanding is belief. Until then you just wandering around with your eyes closed
trying to see what others can plainly see.

Can you see with your eyes closed? I don’t think so.

Tom


The Muslims, or the Mormons, or the Scientologists, or the Hindus might say the same thing... "the first step to understanding is belief". So are YOU walking around with YOUR eyes closed when it comes to these other religions??

Also, you have avoided these questions, so please answer them as well.

1) On this whole worship me or be tortured for eternity bit, does that even make sense? Tom, you have said that you have children. If you had a falling out with your own son or daughter - say some disagreement that caused you to be estranged - would you want him/her to be taken away and tortured (or even just imprisoned and isolated) FOREVER AND EVER???? WOULD YOU? If you wouldn't do that to your own child, then why would an all-loving being do that to his children? Isn't it more likely that humans created this story during a time of superstition and ignorance in order to keep other humans in line?

2) Do you believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.


Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
What if God is a thousand times smarter than we are?

Would that change things?

Of course it would. So the real question here is, am I as smart as God?

Tom


Tom, you've already told us that, unlike your god, you would bring nonbelievers into Heaven. So do YOU think you're smarter than God? Obviously you do if you would operate differently than him.

Also, would a "smart" God endorse slavery and advocate burning witches? If so, should we then return to those practices?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Ron,

No I wouldn’t want my children to be tortured. I would hope they’re smart enough to believe in God oh. But no of course I wouldn’t want them to be harmed.
Problem is it’s not my rules. I don’t own the world. I’m just one simple person that doesn’t understand a lot of things, but still I have faith in God and
I trust him. He hasn’t disappointed me yet so why should I stop believing now? Cause you and a few others say so? Give me one reason to trust you over my God?

I have no reason to believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King. Or to disbelieve for that matter. I don’t know. But I suppose if 95 percent of the people in the world
believe there was one I wouldn’t disagree with them so quickly.

Ron, you think you’re smarter than God?

Tom
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No I didn't say I would bring nonbelievers into Heaven.
I said I would like to. I feel sorry for them and would like to.
But again, that's not my doings. I'm not God and No of course I'm not that smart.


Ron if you believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a heaven, would you tell your children to not worry about it.
Would you bet their lives on it?

Tom
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R.S.
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On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

No I wouldn’t want my children to be tortured. I would hope they’re smart enough to believe in God oh. But no of course I wouldn’t want them to be harmed.


OK. But in my analogy of you and your estranged child, even if he/she refused to reconcile with you, you still wouldn't want to see them tortured, right?. BUT... God DOES torture his estranged children! THAT'S the difference. YOU are more moral than your god! And you know this in your heart!


Quote:

Problem is it’s not my rules. I don’t own the world. I’m just one simple person that doesn’t understand a lot of things, but still I have faith in God and
I trust him. He hasn’t disappointed me yet so why should I stop believing now? Cause you and a few others say so?


Tom, you have a brain. Use it to think. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You are not some helpless schmuck who must subjugate himself to some perceived deity (and based on the OT, a wicked one at that!). Not understanding things is no reason to then just latch on to whatever belief system someone wants to indoctrinate you into. He may not have disappointed YOU but I can tell you that he has disappointed millions of faithful parents who lost their precious children to cancer, or to earthquakes, or floods, or tornados. He has disappointed his disciples, whom he told he would return in their lifetime. He has disappointed every single amputee who has prayed for a cure to their affliction. And for millennia he has disappointed humanity by visiting poverty, disease, war, and suffering on billions of people as punishment for something that someone else did a long, long time ago.

Quote:
Give me one reason to trust you over my God?


NO - I'm not asking you to trust ME! I want you to trust YOURSELF! I honestly believe you are a good, moral person - with or without any gods. That's all you need.

Quote:


I have no reason to believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King.


Exactly! Now you're getting it! But to the point I was making, I'm sure that if I told you that in my Leprechaunism religion, nonbelievers are sent to Leprechaun Hell, and furthermore that you just CHOSE to go there by not believing in the Supreme Leprechaun King, you would find my logic somewhat impaired, wouldn't you? You did not CHOOSE to go to Leprechaun Hell. You don't even believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King, for crying out loud!

Quote:
Or to disbelieve for that matter. I don’t know. But I suppose if 95 percent of the people in the world
believe there was one I wouldn’t disagree with them so quickly.


Really? You would believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King if only a certain amount of people believed it???? What about evaluating things based on whether there is sufficient and compelling evidence for the belief, rather than just on how many people believe it?


Quote:
Ron, you think you’re smarter than God?

Tom


No Tom, I don't believe there are any gods.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No I didn't say I would bring nonbelievers into Heaven.


INDEED YOU DID!!!! Please don't try to squirm out of this one! It's okay to disagree with your god. The fact is that you would be a more loving god than the one you now worship - there's nothing wrong with that, Tom. Be proud of it! Smile


Quote:
I said I would like to. I feel sorry for them and would like to.
But again, that's not my doings. I'm not God and No of course I'm not that smart.


Stop with the self flagellation! You ARE that smart! And that decent! Maintain your human dignity for pete's sake!

Quote:
Ron if you believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a heaven, would you tell your children to not worry about it.
Would you bet their lives on it?

Tom


If (IF) I believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a Heaven, then I would tell my children that I believe there is a 50/50 chance that Heaven is real. Not sure what you mean by "bet their lives on it".

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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On Apr 23, 2015, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

It seems to me that when Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, an omniscient God would have responded, "Why? You **** well know why!" Smile



But then if god isn't omniscient it isn't all knowing.
If it isn't all knowing then it isn't all powerful.
If it isn't all powerful then why call it god?

What's the point in worshiping a god with limitations? Smile


Because it is is that have limitations.
We are all so quick to assign these qualities onto a God as if it's just another human being but with dichotomies.

Kam
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.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.


Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron


Let's see now. First I got a guy (Payne) telling me he is smarter than God. Now I got a guy (R.S.) who made a list that he feels is much better than most of the things God has done or said and wants me to comment on it. With this vast pool of knowledge of you two guys I find myself entirely to lowly to even be in your company. As such I am going to have to bow out on this one. You guys are really the Supreme Beings here. No need for a believer in God to aid you in your teachings. You are going a fine job. I bow down to your omnipresence, as nothing more than a mere lowly Christian, who believes in God as the creator of all.

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much. I must be missing something. Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God. The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way. But I am probably wrong in thinking that. Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous. Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists? Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist? Or are you trying to convince yourself?

qui sumus
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TomBoleware
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Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom
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On Apr 23, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again.

How did that happen??!!
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On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.



It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.

Quote:
I must be missing something.


Getting to sleep in on Sundays and not having a life riddled with guilt.

Quote:
Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God.


Well obviously it does otherwise you wouldn't bother to respond to these posts.

Quote:
The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way


On the contrary. Many of us live full and meaningful lives free from fear guilt and superstition.

Quote:
But I am probably wrong in thinking that.


Yes you are

Quote:
Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous.


It is far more marvelous than you could ever know.

[quote]Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists?
]/quote]

We do. Smile

Quote:
Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist?


For the exact same reasons you keep trying to but into your belief system.

Quote:
Or are you trying to convince yourself?


Nope, we are extremely secure in our beliefs. After all many of us have come to them by studying the facts and examining the evidience. Not just blindly accepting what we were told as childen
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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On Apr 24, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again.

How did that happen??!!


Guess they are clearing out the archives. They actually have members with negative post counts! I belive my only 'real' posts are all in the ML Guest of Honor from 2011.
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I have reread many of the post on this thread -- mostly with amusement.

A couple of thoughts come to mind:

Why does anyone feel that their level/degree of believing in something have any bearing on the truth of that "something?" The existence or lack thereof of a supreme being cannot possibly be dependent on the feeble imagination or faith of any person or all of humanity.

The need for a person to ask spiritual questions may be natural. The desire to cloister in a stone building with others of a similar delusion may also be natural but has little to do with spiritual exploration. Being "spiritual" and being "religious" are not the same thing.

Why do so many feel a need to limit God or create a God in their own image -- and then kill anyone who doesn't ascribe to their limitations? Spiritual exploration should ennoble a person. What we get from religion is ...

I personally "know" that my spiritual essence is eternal but have no need to convince anyone else of this knowledge.

I also know that any divine entity has better things to do than meddle in the daily lives of earthworms.

I could be "in error" in my thinking, so I continue to think and explore.

So, I observe how people treat strangers and dogs and their parents -- how they use reason and emotion in persuasion.

Occasionally I find someone whose opinion I might value. Mostly I find only egoic frippery.

Including this posting, I suppose.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.


Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron


Let's see now. First I got a guy (Payne) telling me he is smarter than God. Now I got a guy (R.S.) who made a list that he feels is much better than most of the things God has done or said and wants me to comment on it. With this vast pool of knowledge of you two guys I find myself entirely to lowly to even be in your company. As such I am going to have to bow out on this one. You guys are really the Supreme Beings here. No need for a believer in God to aid you in your teachings. You are going a fine job. I bow down to your omnipresence, as nothing more than a mere lowly Christian, who believes in God as the creator of all.


Yes, bowing out of the conversation is usually the go-to tactic of those confronted with questions they either can't or don't want to answer. So I understand that you don't want to acknowledge that the god you worship chooses to create souls that he knows in advance are just going to end up being tortured forever. Doesn't look good on his resume as an all-loving being, so you shy away from that. Also, you know that my list represents an improvement from the current state of affairs, so you can't comment on that either. Otherwise you would have to admit that humans can easily come up with a better design than your imperfect god. And an imperfect god is no god at all, now is it? Smile


Quote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much. I must be missing something. Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God. The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way. But I am probably wrong in thinking that.


Correct - you are wrong. But I'm willing to bet that YOU have a void inside that needs to be filled with the promise of love and acceptance from some unproven almighty "father". I also bet that you occasionally go to a place just to "worship" him in order to gain his approval. And you sometimes tell another person who wears a collar (and has a closer relationship with the father than you do) of all your "sins", so that the person with a collar can then give you a special "cleansing" ritual designed just for you. Now THAT'S insecurity! How empty is YOUR life if it takes a lifetime of this sort of thing to feel "right" (although the guilt of some perceived "original sin" never really does go away, does it?).

Quote:
Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists?


As soon as those fools stop trying to force creationism into the science classes of public schools. As soon as those fools stop waging wars in His name. As soon as those fools stay out of our bedrooms. As soon as those fools seek conventional medical care for their sick children. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom


Afraid of what? Help for what?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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I won't bow out of any coversations with you Ron.

My participation however on threads such as this is now very guarded. For some reason the mods have instilled fear in me but not anyone else it seems.

Happy to chat over pm

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.



It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.

Quote:
I must be missing something.


Getting to sleep in on Sundays and not having a life riddled with guilt.

Quote:
Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God.


Well obviously it does otherwise you wouldn't bother to respond to these posts.

Quote:
The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way


On the contrary. Many of us live full and meaningful lives free from fear guilt and superstition.

Quote:
But I am probably wrong in thinking that.


Yes you are

Quote:
Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous.


It is far more marvelous than you could ever know.

Quote:
Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists?
]/quote]

We do. Smile

Quote:
Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist?


For the exact same reasons you keep trying to but into your belief system.

Quote:
Or are you trying to convince yourself?


Nope, we are extremely secure in our beliefs. After all many of us have come to them by studying the facts and examining the evidience. Not just blindly accepting what we were told as childen


And there you have it. The answers from the person who said he is smarter than God. I think from his answers we can deduce quite a bit. The answers really explain a lot. I believe you just opened up the eyes of many and they now know exactly where you are coming from. qui sumus
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acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 24, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom


Afraid of what? Help for what?

Ron


You tell us. You are the one afraid and feel the need for help. You are taking the first step. Good boy.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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