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R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom


It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I wouldn't do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! Smile

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
acesover
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I gave this some serious thought. Quite honestly I could not get past the first day of creation.

Guess I am not smart enough to be God. Have to leave that to R.S.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, acesover wrote:
I gave this some serious thought. Quite honestly I could not get past the first day of creation.

Guess I am not smart enough to be God. Have to leave that to R.S.


Thank you, Aces! You and I will have lots of fun in Rontopia some day! Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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I wouldn't care what you wouldn't do if I were god.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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On Apr 17, 2015, tommy wrote:
I wouldn't care what you wouldn't do if I were god.


I think a "Tommyverse" would be quite interesting. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy!

Sounds a lot like "The Garden of Eden" before the Fall. You might be on the right track. Smile
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I think Ron would not allow for a Fall Aces

Kam
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And if I write, many a pen will break.
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-E......79763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me.

Thanks, arthur, but the unread book pile is growing like kudzu around here.


That's exactly why I needed to get rid of it, Landmark.

Anyway, the book has now been spoken for, One of you lucky contributors will be receiving it in the mail.
Arthur Stead
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acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
I think Ron would not allow for a Fall Aces

Kam


I think you are correct.
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Destiny
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I'd go to Rontopia just for the M&M's, but I need to know if one puts on weight from eating such manna from the heavens in Rontopia?
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom


It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I wouldn't do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! Smile

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! Smile

Ron



Would you give man Free Will? Or would you keep him in a little cage and let him do only what R.S. allows? Just a thought. Maybe that is why you are not God. Smile
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LobowolfXXX
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I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
TomBoleware
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Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and don’t mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesn’t change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you won’t make it. It’s entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and don’t mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesn’t change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you won’t make it. It’s entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom


And of the infinite "me"s you could have created, with such foreknowledge, you could have chosen to create the one who would come to see you, or the one who is exactly alike in all other respects but wouldn't.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom


It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I wouldn't do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! Smile

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! Smile

Ron



Would you give man Free Will? Or would you keep him in a little cage and let him do only what R.S. allows? Just a thought. Maybe that is why you are not God. Smile


First, you need to define what you mean by Free Will. And, as Lobo has stated, there are some pesky issues that come into play when omniscience, creation, and free will are all intertwined.

But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why. Thanks Aces.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.


So why does God create people that he KNOWS will choose a different religion (or will simply not believe in any gods), and therefore end up tortured for eternity? Does he get a kick out of torture? If your dog (or your neighbors dog) bit the mailman, would you torture that dog for 24 hours? I doubt many people would advocate that. Yet, astonishingly, many people have no problem torturing human beings FOREVER for something as trivial as not being convinced of something. Think about that. Isn't that amazing? People would be sickened by the thought of torturing a dog for a few hours, but religion has managed to pervert the thinking process to such a degree as to make eternal human torture not only palatable, but desirable! And it's all God's plan. But the faithful can never admit to the madness (and wickedness) of this detestable system so they blame the victims by playing the "free will" card.


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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"Those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.

I think this is a good reply to the question as written.
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