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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yes but then he could have steped back and reset and chose not to.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mary Mowder Inner circle Sacramento / Elk Grove, CA 3659 Posts |
Yes, but we all feel a little defensive at times.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I hope learns. I have my doubts.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Levi Bennett Inner circle 1778 Posts |
It's interesting that historically magicians used to be more serious, claiming to have learned mystic powers known only in the orient, the secrets of the swamis, etc.
The more modern generation of magicians; that is, younger performers, took to seeing this as cheesy and began performing in a more trendy, up to date style. Not wearing formal dress, not claiming powers, etc. Some of these performers are serious; David Blaine comes to mind. He performs his magic in a serious manner that freaks people out. Some "modern" performers like to insert gags and laughs. I personally feel laughter is an important part of magic. But it doesn't have to be, as I mentioned before. You can perform in any style you want. I think people are suggesting their preferences to you Cincy, in an effort to help you by sharing what works for the large majority of professionals. Working magicians have found the public in general want to laugh and have fun. But your point is: trying to elevate the art form. It's a commendable position. It's like you are trying to help people appreciate the skill involved in our art and hoping they can appreciate it to the level of the opera or the symphony or a great painting. Don't we wish! Unfortunately, even though there can be great skill involved, magic is secretive by nature, and people will never be able to fully appreciate what it is we are accomplishing right under their noses. Most people will briefly wonder, "How in the world did he/she do that?" and move on with their lives. Also unfortunately, magic will never play as big a role in their lives as it does in ours, the performers. We offer a momentary diversion from life that is quickly forgotten. All the arts are that way truly; we may remember one great performance out of 1000, but the rest all fade into oblivion because they just aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. Important to the performer and important for a moment yes, but that's about it. The best we can hope for is to be a powerful moment, a fleeting memory, maybe a signature on a card kept as a souvenir. The thing I like best about magic, besides the creative process and amazing people, is the interpretive nature of the art. You can perform it seriously. You can perform it funny. You can be creepy like Dan Sperry or goofy like Bill Malone. One of Bill's greatest tricks is never getting punched in the face. I'm a fan of Bill's, but even I think he sometimes goes too far with some of his jokes and to ME, some of it is a little cheesy. But, I am also a little cheesy and Bill's act works for him. On the other side of that spectrum, Dan Sperry, I think the darkness of his character is cheesy for ME, but again, that is his interpretation and it works very well for him. It's a pretty cool character really. The point is, these interpretations work for them and actually do help to elevate the art if you give it some thought. People are getting to see two totally different styles of professionals perform great magic in a way they can relate to and enjoy. The important thing is to make it yours and give them you; give them your best and leave it all on the table, as it were. If it's your style to be serious that is fine; just make the most of the moment because after the moment is over you will quickly be forgotten. Your aim to elevate the art is admirable, but the truth is that most people just don't care. I want to see you have fun enjoying your magic. If that means being a serious character, then by all means do it! I personally like the more goofy side of things and think you run the risk of frustrating yourself by trying to make magic mean more to people than we can ever possibly hope to. Whatever you choose is the right choice for you. Make it work and wow their socks off. And welcome to the forum. Theodore-
Performing magic unprofessionally since 2008!
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
To clarify a point, commercial success does not automatically mean that an act is artistic. The opposite is true, as well, that an artistic act may not be commercially successful. To state unequivocally that Bill Malone is an artist based upon the fact that he is working would be misunderstanding the difference between the two. He, as well as many other magicians may be artistic, but commercial success is not the measure of it. Many non-artistic acts have enjoyed commercial success, and many artists starve. Art and commercialism may at times be linked, but they can also be mutually exclusive.
To another point, one does not have to be "inner circle" to know whether or not they like something. We have all formed opinions about many things, from movies to food. But, a measure of tact is prudent, especially if you have negative opinions and do not know your audience well. You wouldn't walk into a biker bar and loudly state that Harleys are for wimps without quickly understanding your mistake. To yet another point... Theodore referenced acts of days gone by as being more serious than they are today. While one might think this would indicate yet more evidence on the dumbing-down of society, as witnessed by what is enjoying commercial success on TV these days, this is in fact not completely accurate, historically. Quite a list could be compiled of magicians of old that used humor in their acts. Some were quite subtle in their usage, and others far from it. Collings - http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51......355_.jpg Carlton - http://pauldaniels.co.uk/wp-content/uplo......ton3.jpg Devant - http://www.stageillusion.com/news/wp-con......rick.jpg ...and again - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XkWgMn6_6yc/Uf......+404.jpg Le Roy, Talma & Bosco - https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736......4c79.jpg Cincy-Mojo's motives for starting this thread may have been born from a heart in the right place, and him truly wanting to see magic rise above itself to a level of respect that sometimes seems to be lacking. But it became obvious quickly that the task was mismanaged. It was equally as bad that so many rebuttals were based on drawing lines in the sand. Things got off on the wrong foot and it went downhill from there.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Cincy_Mojo New user Cincinnati, OH 61 Posts |
I know I said I wouldn't post here again. That was probably for the best since things seem to have calmed down. But I'm honestly having a hard time seeing what I did wrong here. From my perspective, I gave a very specific, strongly worded criticism which some (to me, bafflingly) took offense to. Surely we are all mature enough have a real discussion in such terms without getting bent out of shape. Was it some perceived lack of respect on my part? It's not in my nature to be unnecessarily deferential just because some people seem unable to differentiate between statements (especially after repeated clarification and qualification). I absolutely show unfailing deference when it comes to things for which such deference is appropriate. But when it comes to questions of personal taste and perception, I don't feel any less qualified than anyone else to express and fight for my opinion. If it is necessary to keep the peace, I will approach such things differently in the future. But to me this is a concession of convenience, not because I believe such behavior is appropriate between intelligent, opinionated, self-confident adults.
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Levi Bennett Inner circle 1778 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 30, 2015, Michael Baker wrote: This is true, I stand corrected. I generally remember seeing magicians and magic portrayed from a more serious standpoint when I was growing up though, whether it be through advertisements or seeing them perform, so that was my main point of reference. My mind was leaning towards Thurston, Houdini, Blackstone, Chung Ling Soo, Copperfield and so forth. I honestly have never heard of several of the men you listed and so, since I lacked the exposure, I stuck with what I did know. Al Flosso would be someone I would think of in that respect, but I honestly couldn't think of many more. But Michael is correct; of course, there have been many comedic magicians. It does seem that the serious portrayal has faded with the advancing of time and the realization by the lay people that there's no way you really learned this from some old wizard over in China.
Performing magic unprofessionally since 2008!
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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3086 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 28, 2015, Cincy_Mojo wrote: Hi Cincy_Mojo, Yes I sometimes put my clown shoes on(so to speak)in varying degrees depending on my audience. I mostly perform close-up in restaurant venues so there is a small window of time for people to invite me into their personal space. I've learned through the years ( well into my 13th year performing multiple times every week)that being light hearted and comedic as well as respectful let's their guard down and sets an inviting mood. (at least in my experience). My job as I see it as well as the owners and GMs of the restaurants is to provide an enjoyable/memorable experience. Part of that is to inject humor into my performance. Depending on the effect I'm performing I sometimes will be more serious. I often times think about performing in restaurants and if this helps or hurts how I want to be perceived as a magical artist. I often get comments such as "Wow, you are amazing, why are you performing here?" (insert humility) I appreciate the compliment but at the same time, is it really a compliment? I went a little of track but your post prompted perception of the audiences towards performing style and got me thinking. I use humor for acceptance (rightly or wrongly). My audience seems to enjoy the interaction but I'm not inside their mind to really know for sure. My longevity at the venues I work as well as the outside work it generates tells me, I think,I'm doing some things right. But could I do better by changing the "being funny" persona? Don't know??? Maybe. Right now I'm enjoying the remuneration $$ my performing is generating every month but am I giving this art form the respect it deserves both to myself and my audience? I for one appreciate you post and feel you articulate your thoughts exceptionally well. Thanks for posting !!!
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The fact that you can't see where you offended people is mind boggling.
Look at the title of the thread. That alone is inflammatory. Then you go on to personalize it with names. Then even when you want to figure out what you have done wrong you take this stance where everyone else is a child and YOU are the only adult in the room. You have sort of an arrogant way about you in just a few posts. I am sure this is an internet thing. I am absolutely certain if you were communicating live, and if people could hear your tone, and if you could be seen and such none of this would be an issue. I am sure it is an internet communication thing. But please at least try to see how it could be perceived the way it was. To say "I don't think clowning in magic helps the art" is one thing. It is an opinion, it is stated well and is a fantastic topic of discussion. To forcefully state as you did that what Bill does damages the public perception of magic PERSONALIZES the opinion and attacks Bill Malone. Even if you never meant too it still comes across that way and it happens. You have torn down what Bill does and he is not even here to defend himself. If you walk up and punch someone in the face thinking he is one person but turns out he is another even saying "oops I meant to hit someone else" does NOT make it any better does it? Is there ANY explanation you can offer that will make the man feel better about being punched in the face? You come in here and first club off the tee you start like this. No how ya doing? No hey guys this is me. Just wamo start with being critical of magicians many of us know. Yep some people are going to get their fur up. Now add to this you are a self proclaimed "magic fan" and not a guy who has actually worked out this "theory" in front of an audience it takes away for me personally. A theory is great and if you want to have an opinion based on that theory that is also great. But to me a theory not tested in front of an audience (Without whom all of magic would be just theory anyhow.) is about as useful as a medical procedure never done on a person. You are entitled to think and believe what you like. I don't want to change your mind. But then again I think all of us are entitled to that as well. Having a discussion is one thing. No problem. Having it in terms of tearing down others is a problem. Having it in absolute terms such as so and so damages public perception of magic is not healthy. Stating your preferences as absolute fact is not helpful. I hope you can see the difference. You want strongly worded criticism? Stop trying to act like you think you are the only adult in the room. Stop trying to compensate for a lack of years of experience with the 'artistic' stance and just discuss things like a regular person. Magic is not opera or brain surgery. We are adults you can take that criticism right? That probably seemed angry or harsh or hostile, but it was not. See how things can get the wrong perception? Doesn't take much. That was just my strongly worded opinion about your behavior. If you really are trying to figure out what you did wrong as opposed to just trying to look for a justification of your stance it is helpful. My question for you is how do you think it is possible to raise magic to this vaunted level you want it to be on without actually performing magic? Standing in a corner screaming and stomping "I want this to change" will never be enough to change anything. To change things you will have to be in there doing. Showing people WHAT is so much better about the way YOU want to do things and making change happen. Until then you are nothing but a voice. This is the way of the world. Something that might be helpful is to read post without tone after you have written them. You put tone in other peoples posts as well. Nobody here was hostile, at least I know I wasn't. Nobody was offended on any real level yet you use the word "hostile" to describe my posts. Much like you claim your posts are not aggressive neither are others. You ascribe intent and motive and emotion where there is none. The internet is a tricky place to communicate. After you write a post read it without the emotion you know you are putting in. Read other posts with no emotion at all. Don't add. As Mary said earlier I thought the responses to your original post were rather measured considering how they read.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Well said, Danny
Cincy Mojo, I suppose if you post something and a bunch of people disagree it feels you are getting beaten up. But I honestly don't see any reply that is as strongly worded and negative as your first post. |
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Cincy_Mojo New user Cincinnati, OH 61 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 30, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote: I don't agree with a lot of what you've said here, but I think you're making an honest effort to help me out, and you make some good points that I will keep in mind going forward. I don't really do the "internet forum" thing much, so I can see how you might have gotten these impressions about me. I'll try to do better about this in the future. Thank you, Danny. Honestly. |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
Well, I'm glad that THAT is over! --at least, I HOPE it is!
I really hope that the last three lines of the OP's post, just above, will serve as a "30". Thanks! Danny, Mary, Michael, Theodore, Nick, "et al"! I was tempted to add a few thoughts, but, you guys (and gal!)plus most of the others, were doing so well, you didn't need one more, "IMO"! I've never seen so many walls of type as in this thread! KEEP IT SIMPLE -- a n d, M A K E I T F U N !!! The itinerant mounrtebank
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I have a better idea. First stick around and let us get to know you some. Then when we get an idea how to interpret your meanings. Don't leave. That way it is cool. We get a new point of view and so do you. Everyone wins.
Dick dnuck in there LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3501 Posts |
Dick Oslund,
What does "Serve as a 30" mean? |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
A -30- is the traditional mark in journalism to signify the end of a piece. It is not so much used today, but there was a time when I'd write press releases, it was almost required. Today, ### is the substitute symbol that means the same thing.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I meant Dick "snuck" in there.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
That's me! ("SNEAKY, underhanded, devious, and surreptitious, itinerant mountebank! (also, soon to be a certified and licensed quacksalver.)
Youse knows the verb! I sneak...I snack...I snuck !!!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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Levi Bennett Inner circle 1778 Posts |
Thanks for the 30 clarification, I was going to ask myself!
Performing magic unprofessionally since 2008!
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The Hermit Veteran user 301 Posts |
This seems like a troll to me, but I'll join in. Cincy, this 'hucksterism' you refer to is where the 'art' came from. Your view of the classy magician is post Houdin. Prior to that most all magicians were hustlers, hawkers and performed in the street or crappy barrooms. If someone is clownish, buffoonish, they are the essence of the original rogue magicians. I suggest you read some history of the 'art'. I think this is a BS post you're doing to get a rise (well done btw), but we should all be reminded that this is more craft than art and came from crooks and hucksters. The tuxedoed magi is a relatively new thing in the history of magic.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
BTW Michael! Thanks for explaining my reference to "30". My "dukes" were getting tired!
OOPS, now, I'll have to explain "dukes"! Old carnies, if they liked you, would "duke you in" around the lot. ("lot" is the place where the show is set up.) "Dukes" was an old slang name for your hands (or fists!). Old timers would "introduce" you to others (shaking hands)as the new kid. "He's a Johnny come lately", but, he's "with it". --"With it" means just that! You're with it. You're not a "townie" or a "rube". 30 (I had better get up to date....###)
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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