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JustinWong
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I have been making them on my own but since I'm doing by hand the work is sometimes inconsistent.
Can anyone point me in the right direction to someone who produces more consistent/ subtle work?
With the Theory 11 video coming out (my educated guess) I'm afraid they will be in more demand so I'd like to look into now.

Thanks in advance.

Justin W.
Bobbycash
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You might need more than 1 post for that kind of information, even then I don't think many will provide you with information. Just wait and see what videos/booklets come out on the subject Smile
JustinWong
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I get that- I've been a "lurker" for a while- and really only in this forum.
I'll wait until something pops up
M.Parangot
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Theory11 is into N-Strippers??
AMcD
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Yes, ask Jason.
Artie Fufkin
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There's no excuse for hand-made n-strippers to be inconsistent.

Up your game, problem solved.
Ross Tayler
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Is this the "big secret" that "none of the experts want us to know about" that Jason mentioned in that round table discussion?

I get that not a lot has been published with them, but I didn't realise they were some big secret! Granted, it's true that people get a little shirty when they get mentioned here, but they've surely been discussed in enough places (off the top of my head: Forte's books, albeit briefly; Sal's DVD; Malek's DVD; Lovell's book ; I'm sure there's several more of which I'm unaware.) that presenting them as being underground could be considered no more than quite crude marketing? Or perhaps it was just a slightly hyperbolic way of saying they're not used in the mainstream magic community.

I also struggle to believe that Teller had never heard of them (not questioning Jason's honesty at all here, just, you know, it's Teller!)

In short, I'd be surprised if Ns were what Jason was referring to given the "Top Secret" status attributed to them -- however I'm certain those saying otherwise here are more aware of the situation than me, so perhaps my tiny library and small number of clever friends leaves me better informed than I realise.

Best wishes to all,

Ross.
M.Parangot
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Todd Lassen sold/sells different cutter. Although I don't own one, there was a big discussion on here on N-strippers.
Artie Fufkin
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Who ever said they were any sort of big secret, or "underground"?
Just because folks who know how to make and use them don't bother to answer the duffs that post here asking about them doesn't imply anything other than there's no free lunch.

N-Strippers are actually old hat these days, although that still doesn't mean the lazy get them explained to them such that they don't have to go out and do their own research.

If you really want contemporary underground, check out G-Lam strippers - they'll blow your mind!
Cagliostro
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G-Lam strippers have been replaced by a new modern miracle stripper card called SFT strippers.

The cards are not cut at all but rather the edges of the cards to be pulled are slightly softened with a chemical preparation.

This work is completely undetectable except to those in the know. There is nothing that even comes close to this form of stripper deck. (These cards are a very sophisticated variation of Flex Cards which are essentially marked card work). SFT strippers are so new and unknown they have not even been divulged on YouTube yet.

A extremely clever variation of this work is to soften the edges of the entire deck and leave the cards to be pulled untreated.

There is nothing to see with these cards and even those non-hustlers that aspire to the heights of virtuosity by boasting they can pull an N-Stripper card cut to one-billionth of an inch would be completely fooled by this work.
Gary Plants
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Nice to see a new post from you Cagliostro! Hope to see more. I always enjoyed all of your posts.
AMcD
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@Cagliostro

Here are some pictures of the decks I'm practicing with. Please, tell us how many cards are marked and where:

Image


Image
Mike Rozek
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Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. Smile
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On May 13, 2015, Mike Rozek wrote:
Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. Smile


And you have no idea what you're looking at.
Bobbycash
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Well in theory it can be on the short ends of the deck, but I've never pulled them from the short end
M.Parangot
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Quote:
On May 14, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
Quote:
On May 13, 2015, Mike Rozek wrote:
Not shown here: The short ends of the deck. Smile


And you have no idea what you're looking at.

LoL @ Mike. As if Arnold would post those pics if the work wouldn't be there
AMcD
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The work IS there. As the matter of fact those decks are used in a video I did for some friends. They could tell you that:

- 4 cards are marked in the plastic deck (Carta Mundi). Marks are ~0.05mm

- 2 cards are marked in the Bicycle deck. Marks are ~0.04mm, the minimum I can feel.

The funny part is that some cards are worn and are more "marked" than the ones that are REALLY marked.

It took me ages to be able to pull out such tiny marks. 0.04mm is 0.0016in if I'm not mistaken. Trust me, its hard to pull out! I'm into that stuff for years and I have never seen such a tiny work. There are many videos available with guys talking about NS, they NEVER show you the deck, N-E-V-E-R! The reason why is very simple, it's because their marks are HUGE, very often 0.10mm-0.25mm. With such big work, the marks are not invisible at all, and even a complete layman could spot the marked cards from few feet away. Listen to unca Arnold. When someone is bragging about NS, ask him to show you the deck. I'm telling you, you're gonna be surprised as the work is not good at all. Sometimes, it's even ridiculous.

I know many guys doing, selling, even using NS. None has ever seen marks as tiny as mine. Understand that it is for demonstration purpose only. With paper decks, after a few rounds the marks disappear because guys are sweating, etc. Therefore you would need bigger marks... and they would be visible! With plastic decks, it's better though. But been accurate with 0.04 marks is another story... Details, tips, history, etc. will be provided in my next booklet which won't show BEFORE Jason's video, I'm not stupid.

Now. This place has seen, sees and will always see haters, bad people, jealous people always bashing, dismissing, etc. I don't care. There are people who can, and those who can't. Usually the last ones are the ones talking the most.
Ross Tayler
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Artie,

That was exactly my point. They're not underground, but in a podcast discussion they were described as if they were. This made me doubt that it was Ns to which Jason was referring.

Can't wait for your booklet, Arnold!! It's going to be killer, I'm sure!

Best wishes all,

Ross.
Cagliostro
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Just to add a few comments on the SFT Strippers described above.

From distant memory, there was a type work called "Sturgid" or something like that (I'm not entirely sure) back in the early or mid-nineteen hundreds. Perhaps one of the historians on this BB can clarify this. I believe it was also described in The Open Book by J.H Johnson. (Evidently The Open Book has been reprinted and is being sold through Amazon.)

As I recall, with this type work the card was split, a portion of the "inside" of the card was removed by razor and then the card was closed or sealed back up. This left a slight "softness" in certain portions of the card which enabled a hustler to read the cards although they were not physically marked on the backs in the common sense of the word. A similar softness is apparent with Flex work. I'm just giving some history here so people can relate a little to SFT Strippers although they are completely different.

Among magicians and hobbyists, the questions they ask each other are, "Let me see the move or show me a video of you doing the move?" "What book or DVD did you learn the move from?" "How do you practice it?" and so on. Questions of that sort are important to this group. Then the move in question (usually some over-exposed ancient move like bottom or second dealing), is analyzed and compared and oftentimes there is "one-upmanship" involved, i.e., "my way is better than yours, look how well I can do this, I can do this better than anyone else out there," etc.

However, hustlers look at things in a completely different way since they actually use their methods under fire which to me is the real test. The main questions for them would be, "What can you do with the move or method?" "Where have you used it?" "How well did it hold up under fire?" "How do you actually apply it?" Questions of that nature would be important to this group. Subtle nuances of doing a "manipulation" are usually of lesser importance and at the higher levels of hustling the use of common moves and methods is greatly distained and little used. At that level it is mostly gaffs, paper, psychology, cleverness and "shade" that are used.

To give an example that many on this board can relate to, most magician/hobbyist types would laugh at something like Marcus' Savannah Move because it is so simple and easy to do. There is no challenge for them and they can't show-off their skill with the move to their peers or to layman. It is too easy to do. However, the real challenge (which is beyond most people's ability), is not the move but to get it on under casino conditions and those that could made more money in 6 months than most bottom or second dealers could make in their entire lifetime using their moves in private games no matter how perfect their false deal.

As far as strippers go, they are ancient and go back at least a couple hundred years. In fact, Notched Strippers, or what are now called "N-Strippers" were treated disdainfully in the old KC Card Company catalogs. The most favored and deceptive type strippers were what gamblers called "Cutters." N-Strippers are a variation of cutters. They have been revived in recent years by magicians and are considered the esoteric or coveted "new" work although they have been around forever. Personally, I think cutters are more practical on a day to day basis under fire but I am not going to waste my time discussing that.

The point I am making is, among hustlers the main thing with strippers is not how light the work is, but how is it used under fire, how practical is it in the situation it is to be used in, what combinations are used, how deceptive is the actual pull itself during a game and will the work stand up over time as the cards get moist and bent. These are all relevant questions to hustlers because they are not looking for favorable comments or accolades from their peers but trying to figure out the best way to get the money.

So there are two way of looking at these things, the magician/hobbyist/non-hustler approach and the hustler approach. One approach is not better than the other; they are just different ways of looking at things.

The point is this. With N-Strippers certainly one can pull a card with a minute notch using a new deck and without much deception on the pull. Also, one can separately pull two or three different combinations. These approaches are useful for demonstration purposes and to impress one's peers or laymen but have little practical relevance. But to use N-Strippers in play, very light work breaks down quickly as the cards become sticky and worn. In the real world the work has to be put in more strongly to stand up, especially when pulling multiple cards at once and to make the pull more casual and deceptive. The stronger the notch work, the more noticeable and detectible it is.

On the other hand, with SFT Strippers, since the cards are not cut and the deck squares perfectly, even medium strength work is just as invisible and deceptive as light work because there is no notch or "cut" to see - ever.

I just wanted to address some of the "mystery" and "intrigue" that is bandied around regarding N-Strippers. Hope I did not burst anyone's bubble.

Perhaps this was helpful to some.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On May 14, 2015, Ross Tayler wrote:
Artie,

That was exactly my point. They're not underground, but in a podcast discussion they were described as if they were. This made me doubt that it was Ns to which Jason was referring.

Can't wait for your booklet, Arnold!! It's going to be killer, I'm sure!

Best wishes all,

Ross.



Ross,

Although I wish AMcD hadn't confirmed that we are working on a negative strippers project, he did and we are.

As to their status as an "underground" or "secret" move - you're completely wrong. They are a secret. Just not to you.

You need 2 components for something to be a secret: You have to have a large group of people that don't know a specific fact or idea and you have to have another group that is actively trying to prevent the first group from knowing about that fact or idea.

Lots of people don't know the gross national product of Argentina (that satisfies the first point), but since there is no group actively trying to keep that information from falling into your hands, it fails on the second point. Thus, the GNP of Argentina isn't a secret.

With regard to N-strippers, there are tens of thousands of people that identify themselves as magicians that have never heard of negative strippers. Forget about the 7 billion other people in the world that haven't heard of them (to the lay public the push-through shuffle is a "secret"), we're just talking about magicians here. But, there are a lot of magicians in the world. By some accounts it's the second largest hobby behind stamp collecting.

I don't know how much dealings with the amateur magic scene you have, but I have a ton. I lecture for them, talk to them here in Las Vegas as they come through town, and see them all the time at the Magic Castle. And virtually all of them are blown away when I mention or show them negative strippers. They simply haven't heard of them before.

As I mentioned in the podcast, Teller had no idea about negs when I showed him a few years ago. You thought that surprising - you shouldn't. Teller's not a close-up magician - he's a stage magician (and a *** fine one at that).

The fact that the bulk of magicians haven't heard of negs satisfies the first point. So, who are the people that have been trying to keep negative strippers from becoming popular? Just about everyone else that learned about them pre-internet.

A guy named "SC" (he's occasionally on the Café and can reveal himself if he wants to) first showed me negs in 1990. That's 25 years that I've known about them and never tipped the work in any serious way, even while writing books and lecture notes and doing 3 dozen downloads on other topics. I didn't know it at the time, but SC been working with them for years before I met him He never breathed a word of it to anyone (including me) until I figured it out through other sources. Another friend then showed me some stuff with negs in 1991. He's very cagey with his negative information (and he does some wonderful things with them). Another magician I know refuses to discuss negs even with people that know he's using them! Forte and Rod the Hop tipped me to some diabolical ideas that have never appeared in print. A fellow magician whose name I won't mention has shown me some crazy stuff with negs that I've never seen anyone else do - he's never put it into print and doesn't talk about his ideas to hardly anyone. Paul Wilson's never tipped them. Wimhurst has never tipped them. Ortiz has never brought them up in print. I could go on and on....

All of these guys (and many more) learned about negs the hard way in the days before the internet. We had to see the work, understand that we'd just been fooled very badly by something we didn't have any idea about, and then go through the process of asking, begging, trading with someone to learn about them. These days guys just read a few posts by the Doc or AMcD (both of whom really know what they're talking about) and suddenly those beginners think that they too "know" about negs (even if they really don't).

I've spoken to a few of these guys about this project and ALL of them are bummed that negs are getting wide exposure. It couldn't be helped, but they're still bummed about it, as am I.

But back to the amateur magic scene for a second....

Here's a bet I would've been happy to make you before this project: Let's go to Blackpool. We'll walk up to every magician there and ask them what negative strippers are. For every magician that knows, I'll give you $20. For every magician that doesn't know you give me $1.00. You'd be broke by the end of the first day.

Now, where I would not try and do that is at FFFF, or a TSD convention, or any other place where serious card guys hang out. Many of them have heard of N-strippers, even if they don't remember exactly what they are or how to pull them.

But at a regular old magic convention - no problem. I'm giving you 20:1 odds and you'll go broke, not me. That means that less than 5% of magicians know what N-strippers are. I've got complete confidence in that statement, even if it rises to probably 15% of guys that identify themselves as "card guys" and 40% of guys that think they're "serious card guys."

You just hang out with (even if only electronically) with a crowd that knows about them and understands how they're used. You're more educated than most and so negs probably don't "feel" like a secret to you. But they are.

Speaking of how they're used - you mentioned that since N-strippers are in print a few times that they weren't a secret. Please tell me, where in print are you aware of a good description of how to pull negative work? Sure, they're mentioned in passing in Poker Protection, and they're shown on Malek's DVD, and Marlo put some stuff on "concave" strippers in Marlo's Magazine Vol 5, and they're briefly described in The Castle Notebooks, but I'd love to know of a print source where the method for pulling them is described in any sort of detailed, helpful way. If you know of one, it's news to me.

I think the fact that this 100+ year old move has NEVER been properly described in print before is very telling: negative strippers are a secret.

The only reason I'm releasing any information about them now is because another company has some guy that learned about negs last week and was trying to make a quick buck. This project will prevent that. As much as I hate seeing this information released to a wide audience, I hate some asshat that only read about them last week revealing how they work even more.

Hope this helps clear up where I stand on whether negs are still a secret to the majority of the magicians in the world or not.

Jason

PS: You're welcome to rebut any of my arguments here. I'd like to know why you and others seem to think that negs are so well known in the magic community.

PPS: Arnold didn't do anything wrong by confirming the project - I just forgot to tell him we weren't tipping the topic yet!
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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