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Cagliostro
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Quote:
On May 15, 2015, JasonEngland wrote:
I don't measure secrets by how many people know them. I measure them by how many people don't know them.


This is just an opinion here and I don't want to get involved in any lengthy debates on this because it is only of casual and momentary interest to me. However, in my opinion the main element of a secret is it is something that is purposely concealed from others. Without that essential element of purposeful concealment, it is not a secret even if it is unknown to 99.99999% of the world population. It is simply little known information.

For example, if a heart specialist does not know what N-Strippers are, never heard of them and will never know what they are, he is simply unaware of such information, not because it is being kept secret from him but because such knowledge and information is outside the sphere of knowledge and information that is important or relevant to him.

If I don't know there is a new poker tournament at the Bellagio tomorrow, even if most of the people on the planet do not know about it, it is not a secret to them or me, we simply are not aware of this scheduling, either because it is unimportant or because we did not bother to check. However, it there is a closed tournament known only to five people tomorrow, and they cannot and do not tell anyone else because they are sworn to secrecy, that to me would be a secret tournament.

If I develop a new technique to do a second deal and share it with two other people and they swear not to divulge it to anyone else, that is a secret even though generally speaking the concept of second dealing is known to many. If I or one of the others subsequently write about and publish this technique, even with limited distribution it is no longer a secret since I am not purposefully withholding that information. This new technique may be unknown to most people, even to most card table aficionados, but it is no longer a secret.

So in my opinion it is the purposeful intent of concealing or withholding information from others that makes something a secret and not whether the information has limited distribution or is relatively unknown.

Just a thought and my opinion for whatever that is worth.
Gary Plants
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You nailed it Cag.
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On May 16, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:


Just a thought and my opinion for whatever that is worth.

A lot actually.

It would follow that a series of posts, made on the worlds largest magic forum website, noting not only the existence of N-Strippers, but also of a pending instructional download from a major online magic store and featuring a very well known card-man, along with an announced booklet, to be authored by a popular contributor to the magic forums "Gambling Spot" ... well, that might indicate that N-Strippers aren't really much of a secret after all.

I would guess that 90% of the magicians on the Magic Café probably know the term "N-Strippers".
Once you know the term, and once you get it in your head to find out what they are and how they work, it's simply not that difficult to fulfill your task.

Soon, with Jason and Arnold's work on the subject to be available, N-Strippers time as an "underground" item, known to only a few - will be long passed.
Bobbycash
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I'm just going to put forward my thoughts on the two projects.
I've been incredibly fortunate in being able to see some of Arnold's work on n strippers and it looks amazing. His ability to pull n strippers with such fine work is amazing and his thoughts and applications will be well worth anyone's time and attention, the serious student will get a lot out of it.
Jason has always put out quality items, and though I haven't had in depth discussions on n strippers we did talk briefly in person about them last time I saw him. It should be great.
While I am slightly sad that this work will be more readily available, learning about them from the two good sources I've listed above will hopefully ensure that they are used well. I am also sure those who have invested the time in learning the technique will still be able to fool the normal magician (as I have).
I agree with Cag on his remarks about the secret nature of n strippers, it took me a long time to finally work out how to do the work with normal household items and I knew the right people so I am sure your average punter will not know the method of making and pulling the work.
tommy
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In croupier dealt poker games, players hardly ever handle the deck and so the players in such games are unlikely to nail them in that way. In Omaha the players handle 4, 5 or 6 cards but in Hold’em only 2 and so Hold’em is perhaps the safer game to use them in. Good luck with the enterprise anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On May 16, 2015, Cagliostro wrote:
So in my opinion it is the purposeful intent of concealing or withholding information from others that makes something a secret and not whether the information has limited distribution or is relatively unknown.


I agree Cag. In fact, I said as much in my first post in this thread: "You need 2 components for something to be a secret: You have to have a large group of people that don't know a specific fact or idea and you have to have another group that is actively trying to prevent the first group from knowing about that fact or idea."

Just speaking for myself, I've actively avoided publishing anything about negs for over 20 years. I know many, many others that have avoided publishing anything on them for 40 or more years.

And judging from the complete lack of good explanations in print (not just casual mentions or someone's private notebooks published 40 years after the fact), it appears there was an unstated agreement among many of the top card guys in the world to not publicize them. Hence, a secret.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Gary Plants
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Jason,

Are you just selling "your" work that you have personally discovered or are you sharing other peoples techniques and ideas that have been "shared" with you over the years?
Just curious?

Gary
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On May 15, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:

But I would still note that there are plenty of folks around today who know what N-Strippers are, and how they work.

What I will give you in spades however, is that of the group of people I'm talking about, there is likely only a very small percentage who have any idea about what N-Strippers can do beyond pulling cards out of the deck...

It blunt terms, pulling them is one thing, but knowing what to do with them once they're manipulated such that they project from the deck in some fashion is something else entirely.


Amen and great statement. This is something that I have alluded to frequently and what I see as the main problem with the non-hustler magician/hobbyist/demonstrators.

For a hustler, no matter what the move (including N-Strippers), he wants to know what do can he do with it beyond the basic move, i.e. how does he use it once he has pulled the cards or controlled them. I have written about this above because to a hustler that is the most important part.

But 99%+ people on this BB fall into the non-hustler category. They will never use these methods under fire. Their objective is to show, demonstrate or perform instead. However, in my opinion the lowest form of demonstration or performance is to simply show how cleverly one can pull the cards. What I respect much more for non-hustler types is to master the ability to pull the cards deceptively, (or use cuts and shuffles to locate/control the cards), without others knowing you have done so and then use these controlled cards in some way to accomplish a performance or demo objective that fools people. That I can respect.

Just pulling cards out of the deck to show others how proficient you are at doing so is pure idiocy to me.

Of course, the exception to this would be if someone is teaching others how to control or use N-Strippers either by book, video or personal instruction or exchanging techniques with one's peers. In those situations, obviously one has to demonstrate how to pull or cut the cards to control them.
JasonEngland
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Gary,

This video is only the basics - how to make them and pull them, that's about it. It opens with this text: "The information and techniques depicted in this video represent only a small fraction of my knowledge regarding negative strippers. While negative strippers don’t “belong” to anyone, certain specific applications and ideas do. Therefore, there are many other techniques and applications that have been kept secret to protect both the originators (who may not wish to be known) and their creations."

Pretty much everything on this video comes from two sources: a very simple lesson Andy Greget gave me 20+ years ago when I first asked him about negs in around '93 or '94 (I'd been making them very crudely until he showed me one of Terry's sanding blocks) and a conversation I had with Martin Nash one night in the late 90s at the Castle where he and I discussed using his Nash Multiple Shift in conjunction with a simple negative pull. It's very basic stuff designed towards beginners only. Negative stripper experts won't learn anything.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Cagliostro
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Here is an ad off the internet advertising an N-Stripper DVDs and a Jig to make them. Selling information on N-Strippers and the jigs is getting to be a cottage industry.

Quote:
N-Strippers

(N-Strippers should not be confused with and are different than, old fashioned, wedge or belly strippers)

Real world demo during a 2 person "mock poker" game:

1. Imagine taking a deck of cards shuffled by anyone. (Paper or plastic cards)
2. It is your turn to cut the cards.
3. During the cut, you (strip-out) and control the N-Stripped cards
(Sorry, but I do not want to discuss publically which cards need to be made into N-Strippers)
4. The dealer then deals the cards after you cut and you are GUARANTEED to win because of how you positioned the N-Stripped cards.

The possibilities are endless and the capabilities and more will be explained to the buyer of the N-Stripper jig, which has been a well-kept secret in the underground for many years.

If you thought that regular strippers were a powerful weapon, N-Strippers are easy to make using the jig, impossible to detect even by people who are familiar with traditional wedge or belly strippers.

The N-Stripper Jig package includes:
> N-Stripper Jig, made of metal
(The N-Stripper Jig is VERY durable and portable, so you can easily borrow a few cards and make them into N-Strippers in a few minutes while in the bathroom or in your car, etc. Once the N-Stripper cards are added to a regular deck, you will be able to control the cards at will.)
> The Jig is designed to be able to make N-Strippers on the wide or narrow sides of the cards OR both if you want to control different combinations of cards
> DVD to show you how to use the Jig to make N-Strippers
> DVD to explain various techniques which may be used to pull your desired cards from the shuffled deck. (NOTE: It will take practice to learn how to pull N-Stripper cards.)

PRICE: $850 plus shipping

This N-Stripper Jig is custom manufactured by the original inventor. We are only acting as the reseller for this product.

As of August 2012, only 4 of the original 10 units are available, the inventor does not plan on manufacturing any more. Therefore, the units are likely to become a collectable, while being a practical and deceptive tool in your arsenal.

NOTE: Gamblers and magicians have used card trimming and corner rounding machines for decades to make various types of stripper cards. A few years ago, a limited edition, Card Trimming and Corner Rounding machine was available and sold new for $3,500. As you may guess, today, that same piece of equipment sells for more than $3,500 because of its rarity.

The N-Stripper Jig can only be used to make highly deceptive N-Stripper cards and the corners of your cards are guaranteed to be perfect.

Please eMail for additional details

We have not worked out magic tricks or routines for the N-Stripper cards. Therefore, it will be up to the magician or mentalist to work out his or her own routine.

FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY

In a way, exposures like this are becoming more and more commonplace but that is the nature of things.

Fortunately SFT Strippers are not in books, on DVDs or available at your local supermarket. Smile That information is known to a few and passed on by word of mouth only. An Internet search will not help.
AMcD
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Ah those old people knowing everything and sole holders of the very Truth...
SMERSH
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Auke Van Dokkum makes an SFT Stripper jig as well as his N-stripper jig.
He does not advertise, you have to email directly.
Though, SFT strippers are only useful for Euchre pretty much.
Cagliostro
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On May 19, 2015, AMcD wrote:
Ah those old people knowing everything and sole holders of the very Truth...

Oh...and I thought it was only those who wear New Age thumb and nose rings and three pointed hats. Smile
Artie Fufkin
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It's interesting to note for the conversation that Terry had made his original N-Stripper block many years ago now, and it was very quickly copied verbatim by a certain machinist in the Netherlands, a machinist who was not picky who he sold it to, and thus the plate style sanding block quickly became available to anybody with the $300.00 to pay for one.

This N-stripper plate style sanding block (by either of the two makers) has also repeatedly shown up in popular gambling auction catalogs over the past decade, such that one was easily available to anybody who bothered to pay attention, and who may not have known of the original makers.

It's also of interest (at least to me) that both Terry, Van Dokkum, and Lassen have all made their machines quite public in relative terms. I've not felt that any of the three makers ever made any concerted effort to keep them a secret.

It does seem that people do like to buy and own hardware (even when it's not at all needed to accomplish this particular card modification), and these various N-Stripper appliances tend to sell quickly when they become available.

My point in this thread isn't to disagree with anybody, just to contribute to a discussion putting N-Strippers into perspective, especially as they are on the cusp of becoming more widely known.

My personal preference would be that N-Strippers remained where they were 10 or 20 years ago, known to only a few, and certainly never written about in public forums or books ... and demonstrated on video? - well that would be unheard of!

(I kid, as Dr.X, Van Dokkum, and Lassen all had demonstration videos or DVD's included with their associated appliances).
Artie Fufkin
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, SMERSH wrote:
Auke Van Dokkum makes an SFT Stripper jig as well as his N-stripper jig.
He does not advertise, you have to email directly.
Though, SFT strippers are only useful for Euchre pretty much.


This same "marketing plan" is exactly how Van Dokkum sold his Stripper plates 10 years ago.

He doesn't advertise on his cups and balls website (no surprise there), but he'll sell to anybody who emails.
Cagliostro
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On May 19, 2015, Artie Fufkin wrote:
My personal preference would be that N-Strippers remained where they were 10 or 20 years ago, known to only a few, and certainly never written about in public forums or books ... and demonstrated on video? - well that would be [i]unheard of


Agreed and the same can be said of other gaffs as well. But, once the Internet crowd gets their hands on something, it tends to become more and more common knowledge over time.
AMcD
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I would agree about videos.

Me I select who I sell to. And I'm very selective; many can tell you that I refused to sell to them! OK, I can't control people xeroxing, but, all things considered, it's working quite well in terms of "not spreading to a large audience".

But a video is another story. Jason, well, theory11, has far many customers and his video is gonna be on confidential P2P networks approximately 25 minutes after its release. After a few weeks (say 2), on large audience networks and in less than 3 months, certainly on youtube, dailymotion and co. Unfortunately, that's the way it works with videos/CDs/DVDs in 2015.

So far, I have refused to release videos for that reason.

That said, we don't make money the same way Jason and me. If his video is on Internet, I don't think it's a problem for him as I suppose he's not paid according to the number of videos sold. When a jerk puts my booklet on Internet, it's a problem for me as I won't get money out of that one. Different system.
tommy
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At least nobody has exposed the infamous invention of the steam-gun yet and so at their leisure the fraternity can continue abuse the young.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Artie Fufkin
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Although I don't have the strong feelings on the subject that some have, I think it's quite fair to say that you're both (Arnold and Jason) selling a product which originated elsewhere.

It would seem then, whether either of you make money or lose money is irrelevant (at least to this discussion).
The bottom line is that N-Strippers don't owe either of you a penny.

I wish you both the best of luck with your concurrent N-Stripper projects, but ultimately I don't see any difference between the two.
AMcD
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You don't see any difference?

- My booklet is gonna be sold to like 125 people. All closely selected. You can bet 99% of them won't share anything. Every Theory11 video is sold in a much much larger scale and is usually "shared" on Internet after a few hours, accessible to millions of people. Me, I see a difference.

- Doesn't owe me a penny you say? I'm gonna detail things I have never read, heard of being taught before. Original material you could say. I'm gonna have a big section about history, devices. Took me a decade to meet the guys. Why would this not worth any money? No one has ever done what I plan to do, so why "it does not owe me any money"? NS have been "invented" like 4 centuries ago you know...

- These projects are "concurrent" because Jason, not because me. He could tell you that I offered him at least 2 times to be part of my project. He preferred to do his own. Everyone's free, right?

- I do that stuff because it's part of my series about sleights/techniques used for cheating at cards that I named Arcanum, nothing else. Talking about NS or second dealing is the same to me, just a topic. I don't do it because someone else or another thing. Just a new volume in my series. If you wanna know, I'll talk about beanshooter, cold decks, etc. in the next ones.

- You're wrong, making money is relevant in that discussion. Apparently NS are a very sensitive point for Magicians, Gamblers, etc. To me, the main thing is not to spread that kind of information too much. Selling to people one by one is a very convenient way to control that. Now, gimme serious money for that project and I swear I won't give a *** about how many people download it or how many get a bootleg or anything else. On one hand, you care about spreading because the less it's spread the more you get money, in another hand you don't care whether it's hacked or not because you get the money first. Do you have a better picture?

About Jason, well, I never met him. I only know him the Internet way: forums, emails, Facebook, etc. We certainly are far to agree on everything lol, but I think we show some respect to each other. I was aware about his project because he told me about it in February if my memory serves well. Besides, we have many friends in common, and we talk... My NS project is at least 2 years older. But I'm slow at writing and it took me years to collect pictures, meet some people, etc. Apparently our projects are very different in essence and not for the same public. Personally, I have no problem with that. My only restriction would be that video/internet stuff I talk above. Jason is adult, is knowledgeable and, as I am, is free to do whatever he feels like to do.

I accidentally revealed his project here. To me it was obvious that the buzz they do on Internet was about NS, but apparently it was not as obvious as I thought to everyone. I sincerely apologize in case I did something bad.

I would have a different opinion than he has about NS though. Maybe my world is different from his, but around me, almost everyone know what NS are! At least, the concept. Maybe you want me to name here 50 sources you can find o Internet about NS? It's not as famous as Madonna underwear, but it's far from being the SECRET some think. The only thing is that they don't know HOW to use them, or how to apply them in Magic or Gambling.

To finish, let me tell you that I hear a lot of noise about NS, for years. Yet, I'm still waiting for seeing convincing demonstrations. As I said earlier, showing off in a 1980's VHS with 0.5mm marks is one thing. Stacking NS in a real game with 0.05-0.01mm marks is another story. The one I'm about to talk about.

Thanks for your time.
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