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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
THANK YOU Scott!! Finally someone else who "gets it". I am also not trying to be mean or to cause any problems at all. I am also not trying to come off harsh. However, I am a graphic designer and illustrator by trade and a magician. With this in mind, I have a background and education to try and answer some of the issues from both perspectives.
What urks me the most is this concept that folks have that design and proper branding mean nothing and have no value. It does not surprise me as I have had to deal with that most of my life being in this field of graphic design. However, let us look at it from a different perspective. As a performer you want to always showcase quality show and a quality product. So in doing so, you would easily spend the money on a prop or table or pirce of magic that you know has value and can add value to your show. You are not going to buy the cheapest equipment for your show because you know that will not serve you well. Likewise you will spend the money on your costuming. You want to look your best because you also know that image is everything. You want to convey the right look for your client and want to stand out from the rest. ost every magician understands this and gets this as we all do it. But then why in the world would someone stop and go cheap when it comes to their logo or branding or marketing materials? It is as if we as magicians understand the importance of good equipment, great props and costuming but we do not see any importance at all to having an effective brand that goes through our logo and our marketing materials. I have seen magicians who have great shows and great props and their business card looks like a child designed it. I see logos that are not even logos. I see marketing materials that convey nothing and look terrible. It is just really sad is all. Remember that in most cases, the very first impression a prospect may get from you is simply in the marketing materials YOU are sending out. If this is the case, shouldn't they be working for you? Shouldn't you be willing to spend the extra money to ge them done right? The answer should be YES!!!! I mean if you spend $25 dollars for a logo design, then what do you really expect to get back? You get what you pay for. You wouldn't buy a car for $25 and expect it to be a Rolls Royce. I mean yes they should give better customer service, but $25 for a proper logo does not buy you much at all. It just doesn't. Everyone has a need for a brand and everyone has and should see a need for a brand logo or mark. The brand is YOU and YOU have to get that brand established and recognized in the market place. Logos and brands have nothing to do with JUST large companies. A brand is a brand no matter how big or small. An effective brand means conveying a single message and image you want to convey to your markets you work in. This is what branding does for you. This means your business cards should match your stationary and should match your flyers and dvds. It means a consistent and professional image that is getting out there. If I am handing someone a card that has clip art on it, what is that saying to that prospect? It says I am too cheap to care about who I am and if I do not care about my marketing and brand, why should I care about them either. Just food for thought from someone who can see it from both sides. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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MagiUlysses Special user Kansas City 504 Posts |
Greetings and Salutations Scott,
Being a renfaire performer, with the multitude of video and still recording devices in use at such events, it is impossible to control who tapes what and how it is finally used. However, if you'd be so kind as to tape my show and show it around, please do so. I would consider it a boon, and I could use the publicity! All joking aside, you have made a great point! Having made my living as a writer and photographer, as well as a designer, I understand your point completely, and I concur. I don't have anything in writing -- and if I did I probably would have lost it long ago (it's well past time to update my caricature). The artist and I have mutual acquaintances in common (the renny world is not as large as some would think), and she did my caricature knowing that I was going to use it on business cards, etc. because I told her I was going to. She was fine with that. My situation is, of course, particular to me and may well not apply to others, so your position has both weight and merit. I agree, someone who would want to use a caricature for business purposes should secure all rights to the image which may indeed incur additional costs. Joe Zeman aka The Mage Ulysses |
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MagiUlysses Special user Kansas City 504 Posts |
Greetings and Salutations Kyle,
I apologize as it seems I've whacked a hornet's nest. Once again, I've made assumptions and gone off half-cocked. I should know better by now. You have a valid point as well. I should have couched my observations in the provisos that you have rights to the work and are capable of producing your own materials. I have the rights to my image, albeit verbally, but that won't be an issue as long as I remain on mostly friendly terms with the artist and our friends who were watching the work being done. And two, I worked as a production designer for a trade association for 12 years, producing business cards, flyers, brochures, catalogs, directories, and a monthly, full-color magazine. That being said, I believe I have the necessary skill set to create my own marketing materials with the image I acquired. While I do not have a great deal of experience in producing marketing verbiage, I've acquired several good sources over the years which I can use as guides and templates, and having made my living writing or editing in one fashion or another for about 25 years, I'm fairly confident in that area -- although I do have an editor friend look over my material before printing. So, to conclude and jump out of the fire, let me say that if you have the proper skill set, and have acquired the proper rights to use an image, and have the time and inclination, you can create a brand image cost-effectively. If the above does not apply to you in your case, pay for all rights to an image and have a professional create your marketing materials. Joe Zeman aka The Mage Ulysses |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-14 09:40, magic4u02 wrote: All true, but how many threads have you seen here where people are staying awake nights worrying about their logo? Dozens! "Oh me, oh my, what's wrong with my marketing? Why aren't I getting more shows? It must be my logo!" People worry about this to the exclusion of many other necessary skills. One thing I learned over the 26 years I worked: there's infinite room for improvement in your sales skills ... you must never stop honing your expertise at responding to phone inquiries (that, as they say, is "where the rubber meets the road"). Another skill-set that people ignore, but which has unlimited room for improvement, is self-understanding as your mind works on marketing issues: am I afraid to cold-call? (Who isn't?) Am I reaching out or sitting on my duff waiting for clients to come to me? Oh, and here's a biggie: Are the appeals in my sales materials and presentations geared to factors the clients care about, or factors that impress you and other magicians? (Little Johnny's mother doesn't care one whit whether you won prizes at a big magic convention, she cares whether you can entertain, and even more she cares whether you can lift the confusion she is feeling right now off her shoulders.) I know it's arrogant of me to put this right here, but see my former website page on 10 Reasons to Hire Me Instead of Somebody Else. Have you called some of your competitors? Try it, and write down (if you can write that fast) how many many ways they come across badly on the phone, and fail to give anything like a convincing sales presentation. But no, it's probably their logo, that's why they're all over the Café complaining that there's no customers out there these days. |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Wow, this really brings back a lot of memories from years ago...
One of the interesting things I've been noticing about logos, especialy as used by the larger companies, is that they tend to make you think of a lifestyle (i.e., a way you would like to be), and not of a product as such. Benefits, not features. Nike commercials barely mention the product; Coke commercials barely mention the product; AFLAC commericals, Geico commercials, even the famous Apple Super Bowl commercial years ago, barely mention the product. They focus on the implied lifestyle benefits of using the product. Microsoft is a case in point. Back when Lotus, Borland, and other companies were touting their products (which in some cases were better than Microsoft's), Microsoft was touting the company itself. Who won? I'm not a graphic artist, but I AM a consumer, and I find it so interesting that a company can practically sell me on wanting to use their product without ever mentioning the product itself.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Chad Sanborn Inner circle my fingers hurt from typing, 2205 Posts |
I think logos can tell a potential customer a lot about you. Lettering can imply style and time period, and symbols can represent any number of things.
My magic style and hence my logo, are very 50's looking. From the lettering to the diamond pattern used as a backdrop for it. When you see my logo, you get a certain impression of me. Hopefully the one that I am trying to project onto you with its design. |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts |
[/quote]
Can I ask what you expected for $25? [/quote] :thumbsdown: Better service than this: Buckle up this is a long one.... On May 5, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Daniel - GotLogos wrote: Time to freshen up your website, business and personal use graphics thanks - Daniel http://www.GotLogos.com ------------------------ From: "Mark Byrne" <markballoonguy@mac.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 8:42 AM To: "Daniel - GotLogos" <gotlogos@gmail.com> Subject: Re: GotLogos.com - SPECIAL discounted pricing and faster standard delivery times Really!!! Had a complaint about my previous logo: Order number is : 021009-143323-1870 Nobody responded ..... and you want more of my business? Mark Byrne ------------------------------- On May 6, 2009, at 4:10 PM, GotLogos - Daniel wrote: Mark we normally always respond--let me know what the issue was and see if I can take care of it for you. thanks - Daniel http://www.GotLogos.com ------------------------------------ From: "Mark Byrne" <markballoonguy@mac.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 4:26 PM To: "GotLogos - Daniel" <gotlogos@gmail.com> Subject: Re: GotLogos.com - SPECIAL discounted pricing and faster standard delivery times I wasn't pleased with the logo design. It didn't reflect my company or what I did. ORDER SUMMARY: Funny Money Productions.n/a: Funny Money Productions is my business name this is what I want the logo based on. My domain name is BalloonGuy.Net We do Magic and balloon hats for corporate and family entertainment. Worldwide network of amazing balloon artists and magicians. Entertaining at Trade shows, fairs, festivals and corporate and family events. What I got was a goofy cartoon of a guy in a dollar bill..... Also I lost the file and asked for another one, and I got no response. That was my last contact with your company. Mark Byrne -------------------------------- On May 6, 2009, at 10:15 PM, GotLogos - Daniel wrote: Mark not sure but I think I explained the process. We did try on the logo, an honest attempt. Its normal part of process to give further feedback to fine tune in case we missed the mark on what you were expecting, and its only subject to our reduced fees post initial order, depending on the package you ordered. If we make a MISTAKE (colors, misspell, etc, literal things) we fix those free of charge and immediately but design is subjective, we can't leave the door open for new designs as it would be abused plus we also only charge enough for an alacarte service...we don't have multiple iterations built in to the price and most of the time this saves our clients a lot of money. Let us know if you want to try a different design--if you do just use the order form. thanks - Daniel http://www.GotLogos.com -------------------------------------- From: "Mark Byrne" <markballoonguy@mac.com> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 5:35 AM To: "GotLogos - Daniel" <gotlogos@gmail.com> Subject: Re: GotLogos.com - SPECIAL discounted pricing and faster standard delivery times I understand subjective... but though the company is called Funny Money Productions what I do Magic and Balloons were not even considered. I was a graphic artist for a fortune 100 company for years, if a creative request came through my door, I would have fun with it. It didn't look like effort was even given. So if I order another, is there another fee? Or do you plan on making this order right? Mark Byrne ------------------------------------------- On May 7, 2009, at 7:05 AM, GotLogos - Daniel wrote: As I remember we followed your directions on that...but get so many orders not sure...in a logo you cant drop everything into it - you make a symbol. I do remember being surprised you didn't like it at all and were so upset because it was obviously an effort given and we were proud of the look. But we don't charge much...we try and if you need further work it is ala carte. You would need to place a new request with further direction... thanks - Daniel http://www.GotLogos.com ------------------------------------------ I guess this is where we differ. I see a logo based on the name and not the actions and description given. Bottom line, I am not a happy customer .... I have many projects and products I put out. The ability to produce a quick logo seemed seductive to me. I will not gamble on your services again and do request a refund. Volley for serve. Mark Byrne ------------------------------------------ From: "Mark Byrne" <markballoonguy@mac.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 7:46 AM To: "GotLogos - Daniel" <gotlogos@gmail.com> Subject: Re: GotLogos.com - SPECIAL discounted pricing and faster standard delivery times Hmmmm same response as before .... Oh Well!! Found you off of a Magician Bulletin Board, Will report the level of service you provide. Seems dumb to me to get a bad review for a lousy $25. Mark Byrne --------------------------------------- May 12, 2009 12:14:10 PM EDT From Got Logos "customer service" Mark...to be honest I don't know why I wasted more time on you. You come off as a complete jerk, well check that, you are a jerk. You got a honest attempt for 25.00 and we politely told you what your options were. For 25.00 we aren't trying to rip anyone off but you then threaten to blackmail us with a 'lousy review'? Please quote this complete email including this, "Buddy, you are an ass, wait, a PIG and an ass". Get lost you filthy piece of humanity. Ironically we get more orders and customers when people come to our site as a result of the crap scum bags like you try to stir They can see and they recognize that a lot of people on the net really can be nasty and their filthy rotten hearts surface behind a keyboard. They know this and take what you say with a grain of salt. "Wow, this guy is kinda jerk anyway. let me check that site out and see what is the fuss...well what the hell they have a great service and only charge 25.00 and ten dollars for a revision...I think imma try them out!" Smiles...bring it on baby! Remember clown, quote the whole email ... lets not open you up to my legal team for investigation of slander k? Daniel http://www.GotLogos.com ------------------------------------- May 12, 2009 12:54:29 PM EDT Daniel, Personally I do hope your legal team reads the whole e-mail starting with my first attempt to get what I paid for done right. Didn't know it was company policy to curse at your customers. Remember you approached me for more business, I told you what had happened. Thinking you may want to correct a wrong. I have not been unreasonable through this whole process. Good Day and good luck in your next career. Mark ------------------------------- END TRANSMISSION Thing not done: • Never offered me another copy of the original.When I asked for it again. • Never told me a revision was only $10 till he started cursing at me. In the end I redesigned my own logo again... Thought a fresh pair of eyes might give me something new to work on.
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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DJG Inner circle The northern hemisphere of Earth 1295 Posts |
I am confused. If you are a graphic artist, why did you not do it yourself?
If you lost the file they sent you, why would they be obligated to send another? If you buy a watch and then loose it, why would you expect to get a replacement? Granted it would be good customer SERVICE, but there is not an obligation. The $10 revision is stated on their FAQs. Not picking an argument, nor saying anyone was in the right or wrong. Just wanted a little clarification. Thanks for the warning! I appreciate it!
Your choices in life can be compared to watching a magic trick: You can continue to believe the illusion in front of you, find the intrigue and desire to learn more, or quit paying attention the moment you feel deceived.
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-26 19:07, restaurantmagician wrote: Yes I am. I was looking for a fresh approach. As an artist I am much better doing art for other than for myself, I tend to pick at it and over work things ... if your not an artist you probably won't understand. Customer Service was my beef. If he had explained the $10 revision, yeah maybe I would have done it. Instead of listening to me and representing my work and not my name in a logo, Daniel chose to fly off the handle and start name calling. I was pretty matter of fact. We were having a dialog then he cut the conversation. The file should have been on record. A $10 oops charge still wouldn't have been out of line if it was explained.
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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DJG Inner circle The northern hemisphere of Earth 1295 Posts |
Fair enough and thanks!
<<As an artist I am much better doing art for other than for myself, I tend to pick at it and over work things ... if your not an artist you probably won't understand.>> I get it, you are your own worst critic, and want an "out of the box" approach. Again, thanks!
Your choices in life can be compared to watching a magic trick: You can continue to believe the illusion in front of you, find the intrigue and desire to learn more, or quit paying attention the moment you feel deceived.
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magic4u02 Eternal Order Philadelphia, PA 15110 Posts |
Great discussion. I have really enjoyed reading the comments. I also agree with most of what everyone has been saying here.
To me the logo is the essence of your overall brand. It is a continuation of the brand message that you place out in the market. It tries to effectiovely "tie" everything together as it works to be recognizeable to folks. Not the logo by itself will not do any good. Just like a really bad logo will not do any good either.IOt needs to be designed with care and skill and it has to register who you are and what you do and what makes you unique. It has to do this in simplistic terms and register with folks when they see it. Now over time, the logo can be nutured. This simply means that you place your marketing power in building upon your brand. You do this though your "solutions" providing talent and services you offer. Everything you do can start to add and build upon this brand message and image you have created. What tends to happen is that over the years who you are and what you represent starts to become interwoven into the fabric of the logo. When people see the logo and the overall brand identity, they hopefully will start to recall the things they they remember about you. This could mean great customer service or a quality show. It can be what you want it to be. But it will be nothing if you do not work at it and build upon the brand mark. Just some thoughts. Kyle
Kyle Peron
http://www.kylekellymagic.com Entertainers Product Site http://kpmagicproducts.com Join Our Facebook Fan Page at http://facebook.com/perondesign |
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Bill Hilly Elite user 449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-13 20:24, ScottRSullivan wrote: Uh, no, not in the U.S. See http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html [Quote start] § 201. Ownership of copyright1 (b) Works Made for Hire. — In the case of a work made for hire, the employer or other person for whom the work was prepared is considered the author for purposes of this title, and, unless the parties have expressly agreed otherwise in a written instrument signed by them, owns all of the rights comprised in the copyright. [Quote end] Video taping (or recording) of a performance is an entirely different issue. The person making the recording may NOT use ANY of it without express written permission by the PERFORMERS (all of them). And, in fact, in most cases, merely reocrding the perfomance without such written permission is ILLEGAL, and prosecuteable. A word to the wise: In light of the recent fears and privacy-mania, even video-recording YOUR OWN show, is in some cases illegal - especially if children's faces are in the picture(s). Releases are ALWAYS required. Have you noticed on the TV news that passersby have their faces blurred in the on-scene reports? By the way, I hear G.M.'s logo may be for sale cheap. |
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Wayne Brockway Regular user Michigan, U.S.A. 104 Posts |
Wow,
After taking Ken Scott's advice to look into http://www.gotlogos.com in this forum. I thought $25.00 for some artwork that could last me a lifetime, affordable, and worth a try. I'm an artist but I also don't like doing artwork for myself. You get what you pay is the warning! I got my logo in three days. It was wonderfully done. They even threw in two more different size logos for printing! Wayne... |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Very good discussion.
Has anyone had experience with logo software that you can make your own? Such as: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LUCT9O/ref=......00LUCT9O I'm looking at coming up with 5 or 6 logos or maybe more.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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SilvaAce Regular user Fargo, ND 156 Posts |
I have always been afraid to ask anyone to come up with any type of artwork for me. Being an artist myself(fine artist & graphic artist) it is so difficult for me to put that kind of responsiblity on another artist. I know I would knit pick and want to change this and that. So, I usually just design my own stuff and give myself the headaches. Just, yesterday I recieved my new business cards and I can't say how much I love them!!! Finally, after about 3 complete redesigns and about 15 color changes I got what I wanted. No way, anyone would do that for $25.
My tatoo design has been in the works for about 4 years now. Thank goodness it's still on paper and not above my buttcrack!LOL
All you have to do to change your life, is to change your daily habits!
Carlos Silva |
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SilvaAce Regular user Fargo, ND 156 Posts |
Ken,
Looks like this software program would work great for any type of printing purposes(business cards, posters, flyers,etc...) However, if you would ever want to have let say vinyl decals, or maybe embroidered, or silk screened on a shirt this software would not work. The formats it allows you to save in are all picture style formats. If you have a professional designer or software you would most likely want to create your logo in a Vector Art format(mostly .eps or .ai files). This means that the logo exist as individual lines and shapes(it can be picked apart AFTER it is saved. The formats this software saves in will all be flat. As long as you are using it for just printing purposes it is fine.
All you have to do to change your life, is to change your daily habits!
Carlos Silva |
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ScottRSullivan Special user 874 Posts |
Sigh. This one's going to need headings...
Magicians rock at graphic design I wanted certain features in a car, too. Should I just build my own? I'm sorry, but why does every magician think he is an expert graphic designer? Carlos, this is NOT directed at you, just a general comment to the community as a whole. You sound like you know what are talking about, but I think 99% of the magicians who design their own stuff SHOULDN'T. There are exceptions. Kyle is one that comes to mind. Dan Sperry is another. There are a few others, too. But these guys are the exception. Vector files will bring world peace and stop global warming As for everyone's need for a vector file, I ask, "why?" In today's graphic design work, we can open up files that are hundreds of megs. We can work in raster resolutions and provide a PNG or even that old school Tiff file at thousands of pixels across and millions of colors (ok, millions+ if you're into alpha channels *grin*). When these logos are being used, they will 90% of the time be less than a few inches across on a business card or a website. Even printing a poster big enough for hanging on the back of a stage can look GREAT as a PNG that's a few thousand pixels across. That's less than a hundred Meg file. Ten years ago, vector files made sense when computers couldn't handle giant file sizes like now. Today, not so much. Heck, I just watched a video on my iPhone that was over a Gig. But those vector files are always requested, just like the infamous "300 dpi" file. 300 dpi and other strange three letter acronyms I don't know how many times I've had to explain that there is NO SUCH THING as a 300 dpi file. It isn't until it is PRINTED that the dpi comes into play. And even then, it's the printer that determines that, not the file. Just like how many people have actually heard of ppi? Files are just pixels. It's just that we've all heard for ages, "You need a 300 dpi file" or "You need a vector file." I say enough. Long live the king Alright, I've concluded my rant. I'm going to go drink another cup of coffee. Feel free to flame me or disagree. I'm too set in my ways to change my mind. But maybe I've opened up a few eyes to the new reality. [DISCLAIMER: this isn't directed at ANYONE here. After all, we all know how much better we are tha the other guy, right? The emperor's clothes are spiffy, too. What, don't you see them?] |
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monstercreations Regular user England 116 Posts |
I read so many posts here saying "I'm a graphic artist" or "I'm a great designer" with very little proof at all to back it up! If they have a website link the site usually looks like its been designed by a toddler! The general standard of web and graphic design done by and for magicians is very poor.
I know of no other industry where so many people have an opinion regarding design but wouldn't know good design if it bopped then on the nose! It really frustrates me to see you guys pay 100's of bucks on a trick but are so reluctant to splash out on design. $25 for a logo... All I can say is... if you pay peanuts you get monkeys! Feel free to have a look at our site to see graphic design. I feel better now ! Ade Monster Creations |
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ScottRSullivan Special user 874 Posts |
Amen. Thank you for taking my long rant and condensing it into the core element.
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-05-12 20:09, Dannydoyle wrote: I’m not really arguing your point, but the point has also been made(see quote above) that the act comes first, then logo, etc. That’s why many magicians, including myself, will spend hundreds on magic tricks and are not willing (yet) to spend that kind of money on logos and marketing. As in all things finding a balance is the answer.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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