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davidpaul$ Inner circle Georgetown, South Carolina 3086 Posts |
Quote:
On May 22, 2015, Theodore Lawton wrote:
Guilt will betray you before technique betrays you!
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Orlan Loyal user WA 223 Posts |
Thanks to all of you that chimed in, feel free to share you opinion if you haven't already. I stopped posting since I felt I had nothing else to contribute after the tone of the conversation completely changed (love you Danny, I'll still buy you that donut I promised ). I did want to hear both sides of the argument. I didn't expect a unanimous opinion, but I also didn't expect an argumentative and condescending tone.
Having said that, I'll share my own opinion, which has remained mostly unchanged. I can understand how some people might consider it unprofessional for someone to critique another magician's move, but the truth is we do not live or perform in a vacuum. If someone isn't interested in feedback- that's fine. I think that if you are a professional magician, you should be able to be selective on the feedback you choose to hear. I wouldn't put the same weight on feedback from a magician friend than that from a random audience member calling himself a magician. But I also think it would be foolish to discard all feedback. I think it's even worse if you selectively listen to good feedback and ignore all critical feedback. (I'm reminded of something I once heard Doc Eason say. You should take all the praises you get and instead of letting them go to your head, fold them and save them metaphorically in your back pocket for a bad time. When you have a bad gig and your self esteem is low, look in your back pocket and it will help you feel better). You may disagree with my feedback, but that's your call. The magician can decide how to act. Maybe they'll think I'm unprofessional- but I'm okay with that. There is, however, a potential upside. There is a chance that they'll consider my observation. Maybe not immediately, but if I'm the third person pointing it out (or if two other people point it out after me); they might realize there's something that can be improved. Granted, I agree that the tone of the conversation is very important. In my original post I was very specific about one particular move. I certainly wouldn't critique his whole act and every one of his moves when I'm not being asked to. That would be unprofessional. In my original example, I mentioned how one small movement could potentially make a big difference. I think Danny's example of using a TT is great, so I'll use it. I have seen a couple of great tricks using a TT in very unusual and creative ways that would even fool Gary Darwin- but let's be honest. Most TT performances have to do with a vanishing silk, cigarette or salt. I wouldn't approach a magician to tell him he flashed his TT (unless he was using a green one and really exposing it). Why? Because I know where to look for it. Most people don't. So you don't have to worry, I won't come up to you and try to tell you about the the 201 hand washing moves you can do to hide the TT just because I saw it flash (that would be annoying- also you don't need to run if you are not being chased). On the other hand, if I see a magician that can perfectly handle a deck of cards, but blinks every time he does a pass and does it badly and with no misdirection (and does it several times)- I would feel inclined to politely talk to him in private after his performance to let him know that it didn't look very clean from the audience's perspective. These are things I'm seeing as a spectator, not as a magician. I do think that the setting for each individual situation is different. I certainly wouldn't walk up to David Copperfield when I saw him many years ago to tell him how disappointed I was by his Piet Forton Pop-out move in his Granpa's Aces routine (specially since it looked flawless when he did it on TV). I'll leave that up to Chris Kenner . Would I be annoyed if someone did it to me? Maybe. But it's not their fault. At the end of the day, when I get home, I'll probably spend some time thinking about what the person said and how to fix it. Even more so if it's something I'm not aware of. After a performance, you usually have an idea of how well you performed and which moves could have been better. Maybe you are aware that you flashed and hoped no one saw it, but if three people point out something you weren't even aware of- it could be time to take a second look. As a performer you wouldn't blame a spectator and make them look bad for doing something wrong (even if it's their fault), would do? Well, unless you are (*insert your favorite funny magician here* *ahem* David Williamson), he can yell at me any time. As for Danny's comment about "newbie magicians needing to tell people what they think after reading a couple books and buying the latest gimmick from Penguin and have been in magic for about 15 minutes and almost new born", I'll assume that's a general comment based on his experience and not referring to me- since that would be a childish and unprofessional attack and he has no way of knowing my magic background. TL;DR: It looks like Danny actually agrees with me according to his comment above: Quote:
On May 22, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote: Exactly! All the best, Orlando |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You don't work professionally. So that is pretty clear.
But what is the level of performer you won't feel you can walk up to and be openly critical? Mac King? What level must one attain to be immune to your unprofessional behavior? Where is the cut off and why? This is the delusion that magic suffers from.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
The answer is you don't. Unless they ask you for it. You can't judge someone by one show anyway. I seen a lot of bad performances and a lot of great ones, but at that point in time it is not about me so I stay invisible. Or if I know the magician I stay after and talk magic. It is not my business nor my job to critique him unless he asks. He may have had a bad show, who knows? I just mind my own business and expect others to as well unless it is a magic friend as I said. But I still do not critique them unless they ask they do their thing I do mine.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Jan Schattling New user Hamburg, Germany 89 Posts |
I think that if you believe yourself so superior that you don't need advice, it is the moment you start to be inferior.
History shows us, that many great man fell because they werent willing to listen to the voice of reason from a peasant. Even though advice may be sometimes not necessary, or one might not be in the mood for it, it should be welcome, as long as it is polite and in private. I would always prefer good meaning comments and advice from someone in private than having them brag loudly in front of my audience or their friends. As as often as not, if you are rude or don't take them serious they will just do exactly that. And one single one who tells his friends what an "***" you are will cost you a lot more, than the few minutes it would have costed you to listen to him and give him the feeling that you take his advice serious. that's 101 in customer care. @Danny: And even though you don't take advice in magic from anyone, maybe you take some in internet things. Your signature here has some unparsed html code ("<br>") in it that ruins the look of it.
"Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them." - Lee Jun-fan
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Again is reading comprehension a problem?
Show me where I said I don't take advice. Please. Show me. You guys are so desperate to be critics that it is funny you yourselves don't take advice. Where is Dick Oslond when I need him?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2096 Posts |
There is a time and place for advice but as I said only if requested. When you get down to it all that matters if what the audience thinks, the paying clients not what some self-centered magician in the crowd thinks. As a professional I do not have time for that I am focused on my magic, when I see another magician I do not watch with a critical magician's eye, I watch as a laymen. That is something that took many years to be able to do. It is like a switch that I can turn on and off. That is how I am able to enjoy it. When I was a beginner I picked everything apart, thought I knew it all etc. But after about 25 years or so I just learned to enjoy the show. I don't get to see many as I am working so many gigs myself. Most of what I see as a magician the audience is not aware of anyway, they still have the element of surprise which is what initially attracted me to the art to begin with. It is easy to become jaded and forget that.
So unless I am being paid as a consultant I stay invisible and just enjoy the show. Seems to me that beginners are the ones who are quick to want to prove how much greater they are than every other magician. The reality is though that they also have a lot to learn. If another magician messes up usually they are aware of it, they don't need you to remind them. It is not your job to fix every magician in the world. As Jamy Ian Swiss says, (Magic Newswire) "You just need to do good magic, that's the only thing you need to do that's YOUR job." There is a time and place for advice and only if requested. Otherwise you wil look like a self-righteous ******.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it IS about ego.
What is with the out of control ego that drives armatures to think anyone wants to hear what it is they have to say? What is it about your over sized ego that obviously absolutely COMPELS you to say something? Well yes it does seem to be an ego issue. You think your opinion is SO needed and SO valid that you want to wrap it up in "oh I am helping" but really it is just your out of control ego absolutely HAVING to be satisfied and showing you too are a magician. Yep maybe indeed it IS about ego. Not fun is it guys? Being accused of that when it probably isn't true? It is not about "helping" it is not about ego and the ability to take criticism or any of the other things you want to pretend it is about just to be heard. It is about knowing when and when not to do and say things. Seriously what makes you think that every little thought you may have about anothers show is something they want to hear? Yep you may have the books or whatever but that does not make you a peer automatically. Again this is where magic absolutely suffers as an art form. Time and place. If someone wanted your opinion they would ask. Till then keep your ego in check.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I just know what I want, and I want to hear about anything that could be wrong. If it s not actually a problem, I can judge that for myself, but I don't want to make the decision in ignorance. In the case of the OP it does not sound like the magician was even aware of a problem in the first place, so how could he know to ask?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I just know what I want, and I want to hear about anything that could be wrong. If it s not actually a problem, I can judge that for myself, but I don't want to make the decision in ignorance. In the case of the OP it does not sound like the magician was even aware of a problem in the first place, so how could he know to ask?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You are 15. Not every professional magician is so perhaps there is a difference don't you think?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I don't see what age has to do with it. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand. Care to elaborate?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Maybe what you "want" when you are learning is different than what a professional may want after a couple decades.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
You don't stop learning after a couple of decades (or so I've heard). Dai Vernon studied magic books to the day he died.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Did I say you stop learning?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
You said "While you are still learning" in contrast to "Professional after a few decades."
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ok when you are first starting. Sound better?
How dies acting unprofessional help you learn exactly?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
What does it mean to "Act Unprofessional?
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Going up as a non working magician and being critical of those working unsolicited. Unprofessional. Pretty simple.
How does that help you learn? Everyone is looking for excuses to act like this and none of them work. It is about not being able to get over yourself thinking you know better and having to big an ego to keep your mouth shut. Everything else is an excuse. Nothing more. Too bad magic delusions run so deep. Fact is if you want help from every wide eyed kid or anyone that is not working then feel free to solicit and listen to that advice. But why feel the need to force that on others?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I never once forced it on anyone. If someone is a non-working magician, aren't they by definition "unprofessional."
Reality is a real killjoy.
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