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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricks & Effects » » Jay Sankey selling a rip-off? » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Rob Johnston
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:
I would never believe that Jay Sankey would put out a rip off. He always gives credits where they are due and he is a very nie guy.

To some even the idea of using a key instead of another coin is a rip off. Because the same gimmick came out with 2 coins even before.

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.


Nice guy? Man. Where did you get that? Did he pay you to say that?
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
tpdmagic
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[quote]On 2004-02-13 20:20, Astinus wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.


I think you just made the point that most are trying to say about sanky. He wouldn't release half of his stuff if he did his research. It might tell you something about his stuff. Just from what you had said.
trickster2000
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 10:52, Neoglobin wrote:
Ibd, your missing the point.

Since they aren't the same SIZE, the method couldn't be the same. If you owned Killer Key, you would know what I'm talking about. Obviousley not.


the gimmicks are the same... the routine included is different... the size is different, but not much different... not enough for it to be considered different....

I think this topic is stupid anyways, I don't think anyof the versions has a copyright, so no one is stealing anything from anyone....
tpdmagic
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So the next question? For those of you that own both as I do. which one do you like better. I like the Coin ta key just because the quater is more visual. I also like the fact that the gimmick matches better to me.
redstreak
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 20:20, Astinus wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-02-13 16:43, niva wrote:
I would never believe that Jay Sankey would put out a rip off. He always gives credits where they are due and he is a very nie guy.

To some even the idea of using a key instead of another coin is a rip off. Because the same gimmick came out with 2 coins even before.

If he researches for every effect he puts out, he would not be able to release half of his material.


Nice guy? Man. Where did you get that? Did he pay you to say that?



What do you mean? Are you saying that he isn't? He is a nice guy. Why don't you think so?
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 15:23, Astinus wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-02-13 09:37, PalmBeachGuy wrote:
As an owner of Killer Key, I can tell you that Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key doesn't appear to use the same method of working! Killer key is a NICKEL. Ultimate Coin-Ta-Key uses a QUARTER. To me, this makes all the difference since Sankey's depends partly on the circumference of the Nickel to work! Even though I don't know how Ultimate works, it's fairly obvious from the posted pictures that compare the size of the quarter to the key that it replaces, that the Quarter is WAY too big on the Ultimate key effect to work in the same way as Killer Key!

Just an observation I wanted to point out.




That tends to happen when copyrights are involved.




This makes no sense. Tricks are not protected by copyright. They need patent protection. Copyright covers graphic representations and sound representations only.

There may be a matter of ethics involved.

BTW, size may not actually be a factor if the rest of the items in the trick are proportional.
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niva
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Astinus, I said he is nice because I met him personally at FISM. No other lecturer at FISM came personally to thank us for our support and for coming to the lecture before the lecture began. His first lecture had too many attendance for the size of the room. I think that speaks a lot.

And TPD, what I meant wasn't that Jay would have to hold a lot of effects because they already existed. But rather because of the amount of time to research each effect. He would than have to take the time away from developing other effects and marketing them. I hope this is clearer now. He doesn't have rip offs. Most of his material is great.

And what I also like about him is that the prices of his items are adequate. Not like many creators which are more for a quick buck rather than toimprove the art of magic. That is also why he is a NICE GUY.
Yours,

Ivan
Paul
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Quote:
On 2004-02-13 20:40, trickster2000 wrote:
I think this topic is stupid anyways, I don't think anyof the versions has a copyright, so no one is stealing anything from anyone....


Key Boodle instructions were copyrighted by Roy Baker in the seventies...Credit for the gaff rightfully goes to Roy. Later instructions were later copyrighted by Supreme Magic who bought Roy's business when he gave up dealing.

Jay may well have come up with it independantly, he's a creative guy who admits to not being well read magically. However, re-inventing something doesn't always give you the right to be selling it.

In court, ignorance of a law is not considered an excuse. Smile

Paul.
niva
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I am confused about these copyright things. Bill Palmer just said a few posts above that it cannot be copyrighted. Am I missing something?

And I wouldn't bother much since the creators didn't.
Yours,

Ivan
kihei kid
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O.K. everyone the Kid is stepping in here, first of all Bill Palmer is correct. Copyright laws cover one thing, patents, another.

I think it is pretty obvious as to how this effect works (I could be wrong) and have thought about purchasing killer key over coin-ta- key.

It seems to me that the argument put forth between a couple of members here is that the killer key is more like the size of a key that would be on you’re (and everyone else’s) key chain.

As compared to the size of coin-ta-key’s “key” which would be disproportionate in size to your everyday run of the mill average key. Yes or No?
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.

You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed.

Until we meet again “my old friend”.
MagicCarisio
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YES!
Sankey's is the one to get...more deceptive (size) and the routine is different...the coin and key change places from hand to hand!
You can also change the color with a little acrylic paint for a perfect match.
Gerard

Speaking of Sankey...I'm reading a wonderful new book
he just published "Beyond Secrets" A review will have to be posted on this very informative book!
Gerard
thehawk
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Call it what it is " a copy of another effect".
tpdmagic
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This has gotten way out of hand. o.k. weather its a rip off of the effect from the 70s or if sanky ripped of the coin ta key it doesn't really matter at this point. from what I understand the Key Boodle was the origonall, and the coin ta key came out 3 years ago. then sanky came out with his. They are all great effects. The coin ta key is better in my opion just because its a quater. I will say this one more time....THEY ARE THE SAME EXCACT THING EXCEPT ONE IS A NICKLE AND THE OTHER IS A QUATER. The routines are different but heck anyone with a creative mind could have figured out jays routine as his is just the old 5 and 1 transposition...Not origonal. So now that being said I am done posting on this post..........
niva
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Phew! Finally. A nice and good conclusion. I was getting a bit annoyed from these kind of discussions.

Well said.
Yours,

Ivan
kihei kid
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Thanks for the help everyone.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.

You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed.

Until we meet again “my old friend”.
MacGyver
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HMmm... Take a really recent trick:

Mexican Revolution and Jaywalk(now I know they are released together but they still are two tricks that could have been released seperately)

They both use the same type of gaff, that is modified slightly, and they each give a different effect.

The same thing could be said about a coin shell and something like Ultimate Three Fly.

Same type of gaff, that is modified slightly, but with different effects.

God, how about different versions of the rising card, or the holdout, or any card trick, or any coin trick with a shell or C/S coin.

The list can go on.

In magic you can't call a gaff that has been around since coins and keys were invented your own.

God I mean bobo's has a no gaff way of doing this(not as clean but still....)

This type of gaff has been around for ages, as well as the trick.

Sankey put out his version along with presentation, a new gimick that he made himself(he is not repackaging someone else's gimick), and a new look at the trick for beginners. That is not a rip-off.

Look at the works of many big name card authors, a lot of their effects are rehashes of other people's effects or new work with a type of gaff.

Just because something has been around doesn't mean there isn't any room for improvement, which is what Sankey was trying for: improvement.


A rip-off is when someone is selling the exact same trick with the same handling, this trick is different enough and personlized to sankey enough that is it new ground, and therefore fine to market.


Would you guys be as mad here if Jay Sankey put out a coin magic book, and in it detailed a Coin / Key transposition? and if you didn't want to make your own gaff you could get them through sankey?

would anyone be outraged at that?

I think you guys are attacking Jay Sankey and his method of putting out a bunch of small tricks as stand-alone packages rather than putting them in a book, or just don't like him in genral.

I'm not a big fan of Sankey, and I know he puts out a lot of crap these days, but this trick is NOT A RIP-OFF. Similer sure, but not a rip-off.

Go check out Osmosis or some personal levitation systems or the self folding bill if you are looking for rip-off's.

Unfortunatly you wont find any big names in magic associated with those rip-off's, so you probably wont want to waste your time debating it on the Café if you can't Smear the reputation of a big-name.
MagicCarisio
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Very well said MacGyver!
Gerard
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With all due respect, how the heck can anyone keep repeating that they are different effects because one is a quarter and one is a nickel? You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what tpdmagic finally made clear--they both use the same method. Also, the excuse that one is a transposition and one is a transformation is equally off-base. They can both obviously be done both ways. I like Sankey, but I am not going to stop using my brain in order to support him on this one.
niva
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It's funny really. When a DVD or video comes out with effects that have been around for many many years, no one complains.

What is enough of an improvement for you to make an effect improved. Is Don Wayne's and Sean Bogunia's Dancing Hank an improvement or a rip off of the Zombie Ball. Oh, oh... And Wonder's new Zombie effect. Losander seems to be involved in all the rip offs. Ssshhh!! He also put out a Dancing Broom and a dancing Candle stick.

Hey I too can mention popular names to dirty them.

Oh and the TT. My, my. There are Vernet tts, Hottrix tts, cheap ones...
Yours,

Ivan
thehawk
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Very simple it is a rip off. Any mumbo jumbo other than this is garbage and just trying to support what Sankey did.
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