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R.S.
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On May 19, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 2015, R.S. wrote:
...
It's actually quite surprising how many people still to this day don't get the whole "scientific theory" thing. So it seems this point can't be stressed enough. If something graduates to a scientific theory, then it's incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive (like the Theory of Gravity). Anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Bob.

Ron


Going back to wikipedia, so if scientific theories are essentially 'facts' as they are 'incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive', how is it that this article lists several dozen theories that have been either proven false or superseded?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories


The beauty of the scientific method is that Theories can be revised, improved upon, or discarded if the evidence warrants. But for the time, they encapsulate the observed phenomena to the best of our knowledge. And we should be glad that science is willing to oblige new evidence as it comes along. That's how we progress. To be dogmatic and unyielding is a recipe for NON-progress. And who wants that, right? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
stoneunhinged
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Serious answer: to be courageous.


It's interesting that I'm apparently so boring and cryptic that no one responded to this rather...ah...uh...courageous definition of philosophy.

Science wasn't always easy, and required bravery. But today? Scientists get Nobel prizes.

The philosopher, on the other hand, remains courageous enough to question the conventional. Truth--raw, dangerous, explosive--is the point. Not the method, not the system, and not the safe and dependable. Just truth (whatever that may be).

Lobo and Magnus were debating logical positivism and what is "rational". Well, to the philosopher, even the word "rational" is up for grabs. Who says what is rational? Reason itself presents itself, and it does so without rules invented to confine or define it.

This may all sound cryptic (and tautalogical!), but I think it's true. Reason is what reason is. And the philosopher is the one who tries to grasp Reason for what it is.

Philosophy is superior to science because it attempts to engage Reason face to face, without microscopes or test tubes or the Large Hadron Collider. Philosophy is purer, and more courageous. There's nothing to fall back on. A philosopher can't say, "well, all the studies show..." The philosopher can only present an attempt to understand Reason, and succeed or fail on the basic of pure logic and language, limited though both might be. The philosopher DARES to walk the tightrope between faith in God or faith in...whatever else. The philosopher lives without any faith at all, except maybe the faith that Reason exists. And yet maybe Reason doesn't exist, and all is nonsense, and we must stop reasoning and start dancing.

(All of this I learned from Hegel and Nietzsche, by the way. I'm not a particularly original thinker.)

What is science? Science is the attempt to break down nature into parts small enough to understand. (Scientific cosmology isn't really science, but philosophy.) Science is limited by design to what can be proven and/or tested empirically. (Again, cosmology is different; cosmology is philosophy.) Science is unholistic. Science is BEAUTIFUL and sexy. I'm glad we give Nobel prizes. But when we turn out the lights at the end of the night, scientist go to sleep like everyone else. Philosophy doesn't sleep. It takes too much courage.
funsway
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There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world,
or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands.

Plato
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mastermindreader
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I think the following goes to one of the main problems we have with science education in this country. It speaks for itself and requires no comment from me:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/11......36035167
rockwall
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Well, maybe a little commentary would have been helpful. So you think a MAIN problem with science education in the ENTIRE country is because of a law in Louisiana that doesn't affect any other state in the union. A law, by the way, doesn't FORCE teachers to teach creationism and I can't even tell if ANY schools actually add creationism to the curriculum. It may be a stupid law but it hardly could be described as a MAIN problem throughout the ENTIRE country!
NYCTwister
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Aaaaaaand we're off.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
mastermindreader
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Amazing how you so blatantly distort what I wrote. Like I said, the video speaks for itself. If you think that kind of ignorance is confined to Louisiana you simply haven't been paying attention.

How about doing a little research into extremists in virtually ALL of the red states who continue to advocate that creationism to be taught in science classes, while at the same time seeking to cut funds for science and real science education?
rockwall
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I don't see how I distorted anything you wrote. I mean, heck, I practically quoted you. But tell me, how many other states have similar laws if it's not confined to Louisiana?
rockwall
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I did a little more research and found this article:

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2......tio.html

"As many as six parishes have some evidence suggesting creationism is taught, Kopplin said, noting the constructional challenges that could be argued in court."

So YES!! Batten down the hatches! Man the forts!!! The United States is entering the dark ages!!! SIX, count them, SIX parishes in Louisiana MAY be teaching creationism as an alternative viewpoint in their science classes. How will we ever survive!!!

Whew. It's hard to be as breathless as Bob gets over this kind of stuff.
NYCTwister
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On May 20, 2015, rockwall wrote:
I did a little more research and found this article:

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2......tio.html

"As many as six parishes have some evidence suggesting creationism is taught, Kopplin said, noting the constructional challenges that could be argued in court."

So YES!! Batten down the hatches! Man the forts!!! The United States is entering the dark ages!!! SIX, count them, SIX parishes in Louisiana MAY be teaching creationism as an alternative viewpoint in their science classes. How will we ever survive!!!

Whew. It's hard to be as breathless as Bob gets over this kind of stuff.


Not even remotely the point.

Nice to see how dismissive you are about a blatant attempt to institutionalize stupidity.

But I guess six schools teaching nonsense as knowledge is no big deal. After all it's only the minds of children, so no big deal right?
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mastermindreader
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Of course he missed the point. And I believe he did it intentionally. I asked him to research the entire country for documented evidence of the continuing effort to introduce intelligent design or creationism into public school science classes. So, what does he do? He sticks to his distortion of the statement I made and only researches Louisiana.

That's not just being disingenuous. It's downright dishonest.

But that is par for the course for science deniers.

Even the most cursory attempt at research would have led rockwall to the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_a......_schools
rockwall
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So, "one of the main problems we have with science education in this country", (your words, Bob), is that some people are 'trying' to get public schools to teach crationism. (Not that any of them are succeeding! Except for maybe 6 parishes in Louisiana.)

You know, I suspect you hate it when people actually read your posts.

NYCTwister obviously didn't even read your post since he also can't figure out what you claimed.
rockwall
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On May 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
...
Not even remotely the point.

Nice to see how dismissive you are about a blatant attempt to institutionalize stupidity.

But I guess six schools teaching nonsense as knowledge is no big deal. After all it's only the minds of children, so no big deal right?


It appears that you're the one that "not even remotely" gets the point. But instead of just making that claim without any supporting logic, I'll explain.

Bob said, "I think the following goes to one of the main problems we have with science education in this country."

He didn't say, "This is a stupid law in Louisiana and could cause problems", or "Louisiana is attempting to institutionalize stupidity". What he said was that this was a "MAJOR PROBLEM ... IN THIS COUNTRY". That's like saying Quakers driving carriages on the roads of Pennsylvania is one of the major problems on the highways of the US. It's just stupid. Then, he tried to make it sound like this is problem is more widespread than just Louisiana. But no, the only proof he has is that there are a few other people who have tried (and failed) to introduce similar legislation.

But if you disagree, tell me exactly, how is this causing major problems throughout the US school systems?
R.S.
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I wonder what kind of backlash there would be if there was the same kind of push - the same continuing effort year after year - by scientists to teach science in churches. Does anybody think that would be downplayed? I think one news channel in particular would have daily conniptions over it. Smile


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Steven Keyl
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Serious answer: to be courageous.



"To be courageous" is a sentiment that can be applied to anyone in any field of endeavor that strives to break new ground. For example, it took courage for Copernicus to buck thousands of years of geocentrism to propose a radical way of looking at our place in the universe. This is true in astronomy, mathematics, physics, economics, music, art, writing, politics, etc.

My answer to the question "what is the purpose of philosophy?" It is to answer questions that are beyond the reach of science.

The earliest philosophers focused almost exclusively on metaphysics--the study of reality. What is real? What is the fundamental nature of being? Although there are still some interesting philosophical questions in this arena science has made leaps and bounds over the last several hundred years helping us understand the nature of reality and our place in the universe.

Philosophers were left with less to discuss in metaphysics, so there was a major shift into epistemology, the study of knowledge, which encompasses truth, belief and justification. Science invaded this realm, too, with psychology, chemistry, biology, and a much deeper understanding of how the brain works. Admittedly, science has a long way to go to fully understand the human mind but these disciplines left the philosopher with even less to ponder.

This has moved the modern philosopher into areas like logic, axiology and ethics. These branches of philosophy are rife with questions to which science has no substantive answers, or by definition, will never have substantive answers.
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tommy
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Does philosophy exist in reality?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 20, 2015, R.S. wrote:
I wonder what kind of backlash there would be if there was the same kind of push - the same continuing effort year after year - by scientists to teach science in churches. Does anybody think that would be downplayed? I think one news channel in particular would have daily conniptions over it. Smile


Ron


Well, personally, if a church or two were teaching some science during Sunday School, I doubt anyone would complain. Now if Scientists were trying to force churches what to teach, yeah, I can see a lot of complaints. Although, if they weren't making any headway, I doubt many would make statements that, "This was causing the greatest problem in religious education today!"

I can understand why you might think that though. A lot of ignorant people think that people that go to church don't believe in science.
Jonathan Townsend
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On May 20, 2015, tommy wrote:
Does philosophy exist in reality?


How could anyone know if (philosophy) did not exist? Kinda comes packed inside the any, one, know, reality, does bundle of language.

Does a notion exist for those who have not yet considered it?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
0pus
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I am a simple guy.

I thought that one of the "main problems we have with science education in this country" is the idea that you can legislate science - that science is a popularity contest.

Science establishes its conclusions through the scientific method, not by how loudly fundamentalists deny its conclusions, or by how many votes are taken.

Only a cotton headed ninny muggins would think that a legislative body can take a vote and validate unsupported hypotheses as "science."

And it is a complete perversion of the educational system to teach our children that such rubbish is science.
tommy
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97% don't agree.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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