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R.S.
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On May 21, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
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On May 21, 2015, R.S. wrote:
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On May 20, 2015, rockwall wrote:
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On May 20, 2015, R.S. wrote:
I wonder what kind of backlash there would be if there was the same kind of push - the same continuing effort year after year - by scientists to teach science in churches. Does anybody think that would be downplayed? I think one news channel in particular would have daily conniptions over it. Smile


Ron


Well, personally, if a church or two were teaching some science during Sunday School, I doubt anyone would complain. Now if Scientists were trying to force churches what to teach, yeah, I can see a lot of complaints. Although, if they weren't making any headway, I doubt many would make statements that, "This was causing the greatest problem in religious education today!"

I can understand why you might think that though. A lot of ignorant people think that people that go to church don't believe in science.


I'm not so sure about that. Heck, despite the fact that there is ZERO effort by scientists to force churches to teach science, many religious folks claim there is an ongoing "War on Christianity" in this country. And every year during Christmas time, one particular news channel dedicates a good portion of it's time to cover a supposed "war on Christmas". Smile

I can understand why you might think that though. A lot of religious people feel threatened by facts.

Ron


I don't think religious people are threatened by facts.


Galileo found out that they were in his day. Does that mindset persist to some degree today and in some parts of the world? Probably.


Quote:
The war on Christianity is real from a governmental intrusion. Let's look at Obamacare and birth control. The whole point of religious freedom is the idea that the state will not interfere with beliefs and make the people subscribe to religious ideas that they don't agree with. The more government intrudes into peoples lives, it will eventually pit itself against religion.


Seriously? The "war on Christianity is real"?? Let's see, almost every single President and Senator and Congressman since the inception of this country have been theists of some sort - and most were/are Christians. 75% of the country identify as Christian. 90% of the country are professed believers. Our money says "In God We Trust". There are over 350,000 churches in the country. The Bible is the most printed book. Seven states still have laws on the books that state that an atheist cannot hold public office (there are no laws that prevent Christians from holding office). So any "war" is purely imaginary on the part of Christians. It probably stems from the trend over the past decade or two for people to identify more and more as "nones" - no religious affiliation, coupled with a slight increase in atheism. That gets misperceived as some sort of "war on Christianity".

Obamacare and birth control aren't taking away anybody's personal religious freedoms. Besides, I'm pretty sure Jesus would have been for healthcare for everyone and preventing unwanted pregnancies. (Ironically, some people are all for governmental intrusion when it comes to a women's choice, or for prohibiting gays from marrying, or in some cases on outlawing certain sex acts between adult consenting heterosexual couples).

Quote:
Also, atheists and others are going out of their way to remove religious symbols from the public. I don't know if this is right or not. Our heritage in this country is interwoven with Judeo-Christian culture. It doesn't mean we were always a Christian nation. It does mean that heritage informed and drove our institutions and community values.


Why should there be public religious symbols in the first place? And which symbols are OK? Islamic symbols? Hindu symbols? Mormon symbols? Scientology symbols? Do you believe in the separation of church and state? Have you read the Treaty of Tripoli?

Quote:


Why can't Intelligent Design theory be taught along with Evolutionary Theory. They're both theories. Let the students decide for themselves what makes sense. ID is agnostic to a degree - I think.


ID is simply creationism masquerading as science. It has no place in public science classrooms. And for crying out loud, have you read any of the previous posts in this thread about the definition of "theories"?? And why "let the students decide for themselves what makes sense"? We don't do this with math or with history or with chemistry, do we?

Quote:
Also no one has a hold on 'facts' Neither the layman or scientist. Facts change with knowledge.


My money is on the scientist/expert over the layman. You? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
Jonathan Townsend
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On May 21, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
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On May 20, 2015, tommy wrote:
Does philosophy exist in reality?

Does reality exist in philosophy?


How could anyone know if what you believe you mean by the word reality does not have some meaning in their existence even as a notion?
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TomBoleware
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"Why should there be public religious symbols in the first place?"

Because 90 plus percent of the country are professed believers ?

Would that be a good reason, or should we just try and please the ten percent?

Tom
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kambiz
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I'm not sure why there is a concern about religious people contributing greatly to science throughout history?

Science is science, religion is religion.

Personally it would take a fool to utilize religion solely as a means to discover the realities that are within the realms of science alone.

Science discovers the progressively the realities of the physical universe, but for many throughout history this drive to discover these scientific realities has been provided by the impetus of "spirit"......

Kam
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And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On May 21, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Maybe science deals with the unknown while philosophy deals with the unknowable.


Very true Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
S2000magician
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On May 21, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
Facts change with knowledge.

I'm pretty sure that they don't.
NYCTwister
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On May 21, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
"Why should there be public religious symbols in the first place?"

Because 90 plus percent of the country are professed believers ?

Would that be a good reason, or should we just try and please the ten percent?

Tom


Really?
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kambiz
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On May 21, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
"Why should there be public religious symbols in the first place?"

Because 90 plus percent of the country are professed believers ?

Would that be a good reason, or should we just try and please the ten percent?

Tom


I think an effective use of religious ideals would be at least listen to and understand the 10%, and strain every nerve to find a compromise where all parties can feel fairly treated

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
R.S.
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Listen, everybody is perfectly free to have their personal beliefs and to worship as they wish in their own homes or churches. What more would one want/need? The religious are fond of emphasizing that their relationship with God is personal. That should be all that matters. So why intrude into the public square (or in the workplace or in schools) with one's own particular brand of religion? If you are so confident that you are right with God then YOU will be rewarded in the "afterlife" and all the other heretics will pay the price.

And this thing called science marches on. As will philosophy. And human curiosity. And it's all good. Smile


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
NYCTwister
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On May 22, 2015, R.S. wrote:
So why intrude into the public square (or in the workplace or in schools) with one's own particular brand of religion?

Ron


Because, like any good ongoing con, there is a spread the word component. Gotta make up for that pesky attrition.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
funsway
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On May 22, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Listen, everybody is perfectly free to have their personal beliefs and to worship as they wish in their own homes or churches. What more would one want/need? The religious are fond of emphasizing that their relationship with God is personal. That should be all that matters. So why intrude into the public square (or in the workplace or in schools) with one's own particular brand of religion? If you are so confident that you are right with God then YOU will be rewarded in the "afterlife" and all the other heretics will pay the price.

And this thing called science marches on. As will philosophy. And human curiosity. And it's all good. Smile

Ron


a worthy thought, but your statement of "then YOU will be rewarded in the "afterlife" and all the other heretics will pay the price," is s public statement of your own religious bias (particular brand of religion) that defies the point you are attempting to make.

Why is there even a presumption that "being right with God" has anything to do with religion?

For me, the only common factor in all religions is man's attempt to limit divinity to man's limited view of self. Pretty scientific, actually.

Spiritual contemplation is valuable and perhaps essential for the human intellect. Why mess that up with either religion or science?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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The Hermit
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I find it interesting how much many magicians have taken up the banner for atheism and are vehement in their attacks on religion. They all seem to want to show how ignorant the believers are vs the men of science. A lot of it is extremely condescending. I am not a Christian, so I have no dog in the fight, but as a performer I find that being spiritual is necessary to convey the idea of mystery to an audience. I know everyone has their approach, but it seems that magicians today feel it's very important to remove a God from the picture. I guess it really started with Randi and then Penn. Our craft in many ways comes from the shaman/priest heritage and bringing mystery and entertainment to the masses.

I know there's still Christian magic and all that. It just seems there are magicians that feel it's really important that people only be rational and accept the idea of no God. I have seen Jamy Swiss perform twice and lecture once. In all instances, he weaves his atheism into the pitch. He often is condescending in general, but he has a real 'hard on' for believers. It's just an interesting part of the magic community that I don't remember being a part of it as a young magician. Viewing the universe as filled with intelligence and a source of mystery is important for me. I understand it's not for others. I know you can feel the universe is mysterious without a supreme being. But for me, it's seems hollow.
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TomBoleware
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On May 22, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
I find it interesting how much many magicians have taken up the banner for atheism and are vehement in their attacks on religion. They all seem to want to show how ignorant the believers are vs the men of science. A lot of it is extremely condescending. I am not a Christian, so I have no dog in the fight, but as a performer I find that being spiritual is necessary to convey the idea of mystery to an audience. I know everyone has their approach, but it seems that magicians today feel it's very important to remove a God from the picture. I guess it really started with Randi and then Penn. Our craft in many ways comes from the shaman/priest heritage and bringing mystery and entertainment to the masses.

I know there's still Christian magic and all that. It just seems there are magicians that feel it's really important that people only be rational and accept the idea of no God. I have seen Jamy Swiss perform twice and lecture once. In all instances, he weaves his atheism into the pitch. He often is condescending in general, but he has a real 'hard on' for believers. It's just an interesting part of the magic community that I don't remember being a part of it as a young magician. Viewing the universe as filled with intelligence and a source of mystery is important for me. I understand it's not for others. I know you can feel the universe is mysterious without a supreme being. But for me, it's seems hollow.



Excellent and I'm glad I am not the only one that sees it this way.

I’ve asked this same question before here. Why is it that magic and atheism have so much in common?
Of course most say there isn’t any but I think the mindsets are a lot alike.

Yes many have copied Randi and Penn.

Tom
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0pus
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Actually, both religion and atheism have their missionaries. I view both as zealous proselytizers. I am not too thrilled with either; a conversation with either (regardless of purported subject) sometimes makes me feel like I am stuck in one of those interminable timeshare pitches.
The Hermit
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On May 22, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Actually, both religion and atheism have their missionaries. I view both as zealous proselytizers. I am not too thrilled with either; a conversation with either (regardless of purported subject) sometimes makes me feel like I am stuck in one of those interminable timeshare pitches.


Certainly true. It's just interesting to me that skeptics have become such a wing of magic. I know Houdini was an exposer and for some reason many magicians feel that is a tradition to uphold. Save the masses from the charlatans and all that. Which is more ego based than anything.

I too believe many here get dogmatic about their religious beliefs. I get religious people being dogmatic, but the idea of a skeptic being so dogmatic on evolution or science is the final word for rational man and such is weird. It seems the only thing they are skeptical about is the possibility of a metaphysical reality apart from our current one. I believe in lots of things, but always hold out that I could be completely wrong. I don't see much skepticism on science and those world views.
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I knew an astronomy professor when I was in college and he was invited to be interviewed on television. He was a little blindsided by the TV people because, unbeknownst to him, they had also invited an astrologer, and they wanted the two of them to "mix it up a bit" for the cameras. The professor began to engage on camera with the astrologer, but shortly into the encounter, as he recounts subsequently, "it dawned on me that this [astrology] was a religion. You can't argue with that! It's belief, not science."

I think I agree with the astronomy professor. And I let it be.
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I tried mixing it up a bit with someone on the boards about AGW but shortly into the encounter it dawned on me that this (AGW) was a religion to him. I found that you can't argue with that. It's belief, not science.
0pus
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On May 22, 2015, rockwall wrote:
. . . AGW . . . It's belief, not science.


Yeah. It's just a theory.
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Ahh. I see that you're one of the faithful.
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