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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Not very magical, still... Ľ Ľ Science (10 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pakar Ilusi
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Science. You're using it now.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
TomBoleware
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Iíve seen some pretty good arguments from the young earth people about Carbon dating, so I have mixed feeling about it.
Just makes sense to me that nature seems to find a way to fix itself, and if for some reason something needed aging in a hurry maybe it did it.

Come to think of it, I saw a Superman movie onetime where he speeded up the earth to change time.Smile

Tom
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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, Pakar Ilusi wrote:
Science. You're using it now.


We are using technology, not science.
tommy
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Facts do not exist in reality.

How many facts are in a ton of facts anyway?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Hermit
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Apparently at least 7000 lbs. or maybe that's 3 1/2 ton of facts

http://gizmodo.com/5988530/how-much-would-wikipedia-weigh#
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, 0pus wrote:
...

I would like to point out, however, that the non-science/anti-science challengers normally assert that things are much younger/newer than carbon dating would indicate. This new data demonstrates, if anything, that things are even OLDER than carbon dating indicates.


Which only goes to point out that possibly BOTH groups were wrong!
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
As to throwing away the religious part, how about St Augustine, Mendel? They were scientists and thinkers that were motivated by religion. Hard to separate them.


Perhaps, but the "religiously motivated" scientists of the past (and granted, there were many) used science, not religion, as their methodology for discovery. If we had always relied strictly on religion/spirituality and never developed the scientific method to gain understanding and to make discoveries and technological advancements, where would we be today? It would be a pretty bleak place. But switch that scenario and replace religion with science for most of human history and one can only imagine what we may have achieved by now. It's literally a WORLD of difference. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
mastermindreader
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One of the biggest problems among so-called science deniers is their failure, or often refusal, to recognize the difference between the normal meaning of the word "theory" and the scientific meaning:

Quote:
Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions.[6] They describe the causal elements responsible for a particular natural phenomenon, and are used to explain and predict aspects of the physical universe or specific areas of inquiry (e.g. electricity, chemistry, astronomy). Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[4] This is significantly different from the common usage of the word "theory", which implies that something is a conjecture, hypothesis, or guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative).
[emphasis added]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Those who dismiss evolution, for example, as being "just a theory" are completely oblivious to the distinction.
Starrpower
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Darn straight! Wikipedia said it! It's indisputable!
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Iíve seen some pretty good arguments from the young earth people about Carbon dating,


No you haven't, Tom. You've seen propaganda of the most egregious kind. The margin of error in claiming a 6,000 year old Earth is equivalent to saying that the distance from New York to L.A. is 20 feet! And that's not hyperbole either - do the math comparing 4.55 billion years to 6,000 years and you'll see for yourself.

Quote:
Just makes sense to me that nature seems to find a way to fix itself, and if for some reason something needed aging in a hurry maybe it did it.

Come to think of it, I saw a Superman movie onetime where he speeded up the earth to change time.Smile

Tom


What could possibly need "aging in a hurry"? And why?

And you do realize there is no such thing as Superman, do you? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
One of the biggest problems among so-called science deniers is their failure, or often refusal, to recognize the difference between the normal meaning of the word "theory" and the scientific meaning:

Quote:
Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions.[6] They describe the causal elements responsible for a particular natural phenomenon, and are used to explain and predict aspects of the physical universe or specific areas of inquiry (e.g. electricity, chemistry, astronomy). Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[4] This is significantly different from the common usage of the word "theory", which implies that something is a conjecture, hypothesis, or guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative).
[emphasis added]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

Those who dismiss evolution, for example, as being "just a theory" are completely oblivious to the distinction.


It's actually quite surprising how many people still to this day don't get the whole "scientific theory" thing. So it seems this point can't be stressed enough. If something graduates to a scientific theory, then it's incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive (like the Theory of Gravity). Anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Bob.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
Darn straight! Wikipedia said it! It's indisputable!


Check the footnotes to the article. Would you prefer if I quote the original source? Are you really that oblivious as to what a scientific theory is?

BTW, the quote from Wikipedia comes from the National Academy of Science:

http://nationalacademies.org/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

You might also look at the source for the following if you'd like to actually learn something about scientific theories and the scientific method:

Quote:
A theory in science is not a guess, speculation, or suggestion, which is the popular definition of the word "theory." A scientific theory is a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is totally constructed of corroborated hypotheses. A theory, therefore, is built of reliable knowledge--built of scientific facts--and its purpose is to explain major natural processes or phenomena. Scientific theories explain nature by unifying many once-unrelated facts or corroborated hypotheses; they are the strongest and most truthful explanations of how the universe, nature, and life came to be, how they work, what they are made of, and what will become of them. Since humans are living organisms and are part of the universe, science explains all of these things about ourselves.

These scientific theories--such as the theories of relativity, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, evolution, genetics, plate tectonics, and big bang cosmology--are the most reliable, most rigorous, and most comprehensive form of knowledge that humans possess. Thus, it is important for every educated person to understand where scientific knowledge comes from, and how to emulate this method of gaining knowledge. Scientific knowledge comes from the practice of scientific thinking--using the scientific method--and this mode of discovering and validating knowledge can be duplicated and achieved by anyone who practices critical thinking.


http://www.geo.sunysb.edu/esp/files/scientific-method.html

But please enlighten to us uneducated folks why the NAS or the world's scientists don't know what they're talking about, and tell us what a scientific theory is, according to you.
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Iíve seen some pretty good arguments from the young earth people about Carbon dating,


No you haven't, Tom. You've seen propaganda of the most egregious kind. The margin of error in claiming a 6,000 year old Earth is equivalent to saying that the distance from New York to L.A. is 20 feet! And that's not hyperbole either - do the math comparing 4.55 billion years to 6,000 years and you'll see for yourself.

Quote:
Just makes sense to me that nature seems to find a way to fix itself, and if for some reason something needed aging in a hurry maybe it did it.

Come to think of it, I saw a Superman movie onetime where he speeded up the earth to change time.Smile

Tom


What could possibly need "aging in a hurry"? And why?

And you do realize there is no such thing as Superman, do you? Smile

Ron


Now how in the world do you know what Iíve heard and what I havenít heard?
Besides, Iím not saying I agree with it all, just that some of it makes sense to me.
I have no idea how old the earth is. I donít think itís as old as some think oh.


You are right about Superman, he is not realÖ....but I do know this other guy with some pretty good powers. Smile

Tom
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tommy
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Global warming is a conspiracy theory.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, R.S. wrote:
...
It's actually quite surprising how many people still to this day don't get the whole "scientific theory" thing. So it seems this point can't be stressed enough. If something graduates to a scientific theory, then it's incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive (like the Theory of Gravity). Anyway, thanks for pointing that out, Bob.

Ron


Going back to wikipedia, so if scientific theories are essentially 'facts' as they are 'incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive', how is it that this article lists several dozen theories that have been either proven false or superseded?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superseded_scientific_theories
mastermindreader
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Isn't the answer obvious? As scientific knowledge of the universe grows, theories are adjusted, rethought or discarded accordingly. If that were not the case, science would no longer be science.

Note how old most of the "superceded" theories listed in the article are. Science has progressed quite a bit since the ancient theories of phlogiston, heliocentrism, geocentrism, flat earth, etc.

As already stated, currently accepted scientific theories are indeed 'incredibly substantiated, reliable, and predictive.' But that doesn't mean that our quest for knowledge is complete. To be scientific, a theory MUST be falsifiable, otherwise it is just blind dogma. But the burden of proof is on the party proposing that the theory be changed. And that's how science progresses.

It doesn't appear that you actually read the article you cited, for it answers your question quite completely.
Starrpower
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Are you really that oblivious as to what a scientific theory is?



I don't know why you're getting your undies in a bundle. Wasn't I agreeing with you?
mastermindreader
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Actually, you took a snide potshot at the fact that I quoted Wikipedia:

Quote:
Darn straight! Wikipedia said it! It's indisputable!


Do you think everyone here is so dense that they will read that as an agreement?

Nice try at backpedaling, though.

So, do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion?
R.S.
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Iíve seen some pretty good arguments from the young earth people about Carbon dating,


No you haven't, Tom. You've seen propaganda of the most egregious kind. The margin of error in claiming a 6,000 year old Earth is equivalent to saying that the distance from New York to L.A. is 20 feet! And that's not hyperbole either - do the math comparing 4.55 billion years to 6,000 years and you'll see for yourself.

Quote:
Just makes sense to me that nature seems to find a way to fix itself, and if for some reason something needed aging in a hurry maybe it did it.

Come to think of it, I saw a Superman movie onetime where he speeded up the earth to change time.Smile

Tom


What could possibly need "aging in a hurry"? And why?

And you do realize there is no such thing as Superman, do you? Smile

Ron


Now how in the world do you know what Iíve heard and what I havenít heard?
Besides, Iím not saying I agree with it all, just that some of it makes sense to me.
I have no idea how old the earth is. I donít think itís as old as some think oh.


Tom, Tom, Tom. You just told us that you've "seen some pretty good arguments from the young earth people". And that it makes sense to you. But what makes what they say more credible than what actual scientists have to say? The Young Earthers will say the earth is 6,000 years old no matter what the actual evidence says, because THEY HAVE AN AGENDA! Don't you get it? They don't care about facts! The evidence for the age of the earth is overwhelming. It's not a great mystery anymore. The fields of anthropology, biology, paleontology, geology, and astronomy all triangulate to a 4.55 billion year old earth (plus or minus 1%).
http://www.talkorigins.org/

And a Nobel prize and world fame is waiting for anyone to show that those calculations are wildly wrong and that the earth is 6,000 years old. Anyway, now you know how old the earth is. If I, or someone, asks you in 2 months how old the earth is you have no excuse not to tell them it's actual age. Unless of course, YOU too have an agenda.



Quote:
You are right about Superman, he is not realÖ....but I do know this other guy with some pretty good powers. Smile

Tom


Spiderman? Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Not very magical, still... Ľ Ľ Science (10 Likes)
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