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Lou Is
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Has anyone been approached by a spectator after a show and been told they have found your show to be offensive? Not in a rude way, but that they found the use of scripture to accompany a magic trick to be trivializing the message, or simply inappropriate? Very curious.

Thanks!
plink
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Never.
Russo
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Usually start my program by saying "I'm Not Simon - Just an Illusionest illustrating Bible verses and my own witness-" some times I'll say that "I'm going to lecture on ILLUSION -DELUSION & CONFUSION" usng the Spot Card - Illusion/first set--Delusion/showing how its done(not with full spots) then Confusion/ful spots and then say"if you see too many spots(8 spts) don't drive home" - now use Verse, 1st Corenth.12:4-7 and 2nd Corenth. 4:1-2 ( in the Living Bible the word "trick" is used in 2nd.Corenth. ) Help any??? Ralph(russo)Rousseau
Jay Jennings
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If it comes up again (probably won't), just tell them you see it in much the same way that Jesus used storytelling to illustrate truths. That's all you're doing.
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ClintonMagus
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I have seen many instances where I thought scripture was really being stretched to try and fit a trick, but I have never found it "offensive". I would rather see the magic used to, as Jay said, "Illustrate the truths" or tell a story without necessarily trying to conform to a scripture passage.

Personally, I think magic and the Gospel should each stand alone. To combine them dilutes the power of both. After all, has there ever been anything more powerful and amazing than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?!?!?! How do you top that?

I have seen many great Christian magicians, but I have only ever seen a few truly great "Gospel magicians".
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Jun 4, 2015, ClintonMagus wrote:
I have seen many instances where I thought scripture was really being stretched to try and fit a trick, but I have never found it "offensive". I would rather see the magic used to, as Jay said, "Illustrate the truths" or tell a story without necessarily trying to conform to a scripture passage.

Personally, I think magic and the Gospel should each stand alone. To combine them dilutes the power of both. After all, has there ever been anything more powerful and amazing than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?!?!?! How do you top that?

I have seen many great Christian magicians, but I have only ever seen a few truly great "Gospel magicians".


Brilliant post Clinton. I ESPECIALLY love your statement about not diluting the power of the Gospels. I suppose it really resonates with me because teaching Christian lessons in the context of magic is an illustrative action and as mentioned, we know that Christ used the illustrative action of parables. But when it comes to teaching actual DOCTRINE and INTERPRETATION of a passage of Scripture, I am of the firm belief that such should be left to a priest, bishop, minister, or rabbi.

Imagine for instance trying to interpret St. James when he stated, "So you see brethren that faith without works is dead" and/or from St. Paul. "Remember brethren therefore to hold fast to what you have been taught either by my word or written epistle." I chose these two verses as examples because they are indicative of the differences in core beliefs between Orthodox and Catholics on one side and Protestants on the other as they address both sola scriptura and sola fide. These are issues that have been debated for centuries and while I will talk to Protestant friends about these, I would never - even if I was a "Gospel magician" EVER try to tackle these. I'd rather have a root canal. Smile

I would also add that some churches would find directly teaching the Gospels as offensive because the person teaching would not be - in the eyes of that particular church body/denomination - QUALIFIED to teach the Gospels. I realize also that I may take some flack for this but there are a few things I have read here in the past that frankly make me a little nervous. I don't feel comfortable with discussions about Jesus or Holy Spirit "silks" for instance. Though I realize magicians aren't doing so because it is impossible, I still find that even the possible hint of an illusion which "reduces" the Second and Third Persons of the Holy Trinity to be problematic. While it is true that Orthodox Christians and Catholics have icons and statues, their function is not entertainment and so one cannot argue that a Jesus silk is the same as an icon of Christ. In other words, I would never dream of doing an icon version of hippity hop rabbits. Icons ARE used for teaching and before the printing press they served a practical purpose because most of the populace could not READ and virtually no one had Bibles except royalty and the churches. So icons helped an illiterate population to understand what the priest or bishop was trying to teach. But the important distinction is that icons are not for "entertainment." Much prayer and fasting is part of writing icons (hagiography - the writing of wisdom) and the writing of them (they are not paintings) must adhere to STRICT parameters and there is NO artistic license because one should NEVER take free license with the Truth.

I don't sense that silks with the image of Christ are created with prayer and fasting so I would be one of those Christians who would find such a thing extremely offensive. THAT SAID, one can still illustrate something like Pentecost using the classic Twentieth Century Silks but without using a dove image to represent the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. The message is important and Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, and Protestants all recognize the FACT of the founding of the Church on Pentecost and as such should NEVER be diluted.

+In Him, humbly,
Vlad
themagiciansapprentice
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I lead a service about water and Baptism (the reading was the Baptism of John the Baptist). I lead six per annum in this small church.

One elderly person (who rarely attends) was offended by this and asked why did Jesus die if his Blood wasn't worth me mentioning. Yes, she argued with me over a coffee afterwards.

The Church has now published a calendar of preachers so that folks can choose which services they attend.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2015, themagiciansapprentice wrote:
I lead a service about water and Baptism (the reading was the Baptism of John the Baptist). I lead six per annum in this small church.

One elderly person (who rarely attends) was offended by this and asked why did Jesus die if his Blood wasn't worth me mentioning. Yes, she argued with me over a coffee afterwards.

The Church has now published a calendar of preachers so that folks can choose which services they attend.


There is definitely a spanner in the works if a church feels compelled to publish a list of preachers from which to pick and choose.
Lou Is
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Thanks for the feedback.
ClintonMagus
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2015, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 4, 2015, ClintonMagus wrote:
I have seen many instances where I thought scripture was really being stretched to try and fit a trick, but I have never found it "offensive". I would rather see the magic used to, as Jay said, "Illustrate the truths" or tell a story without necessarily trying to conform to a scripture passage.

Personally, I think magic and the Gospel should each stand alone. To combine them dilutes the power of both. After all, has there ever been anything more powerful and amazing than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?!?!?! How do you top that?

I have seen many great Christian magicians, but I have only ever seen a few truly great "Gospel magicians".


I don't feel comfortable with discussions about Jesus or Holy Spirit "silks" for instance.


This is only "tangentially related", but our lesson this past Sunday was about making sure your worship is "authentic". It was written by a pastor whose church intentionally avoids the religious trappings such as fancy furniture, art, etc. in their sanctuary so that everyone's attention is focused on the message. Sometimes we get so caught up in colors, personalities, musical styles, technology, etc. that we turn those things into idols without realizing it. The Gospel is about as simple as it gets. In my opinion, anything used to illustrate it should be simple also.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Jun 10, 2015, ClintonMagus wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 5, 2015, Vlad_77 wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 4, 2015, ClintonMagus wrote:
I have seen many instances where I thought scripture was really being stretched to try and fit a trick, but I have never found it "offensive". I would rather see the magic used to, as Jay said, "Illustrate the truths" or tell a story without necessarily trying to conform to a scripture passage.

Personally, I think magic and the Gospel should each stand alone. To combine them dilutes the power of both. After all, has there ever been anything more powerful and amazing than the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?!?!?! How do you top that?

I have seen many great Christian magicians, but I have only ever seen a few truly great "Gospel magicians".


I don't feel comfortable with discussions about Jesus or Holy Spirit "silks" for instance.


This is only "tangentially related", but our lesson this past Sunday was about making sure your worship is "authentic". It was written by a pastor whose church intentionally avoids the religious trappings such as fancy furniture, art, etc. in their sanctuary so that everyone's attention is focused on the message. Sometimes we get so caught up in colors, personalities, musical styles, technology, etc. that we turn those things into idols without realizing it. The Gospel is about as simple as it gets. In my opinion, anything used to illustrate it should be simple also.


I agree. What most people do not know is the function of icons in Orthodox Christianity. They are NOT worshiped. Rather, they are written after much prayer and fasting and they are meant to be aids in teaching us. If you look at an icon you notice that the perspective is reversed. The reason for that is that they illustrate that Heaven looks to us as we worship simultaneously with the eternal worship in Heaven.

Bless you Clinton; I have ALWAYS enjoyed your posts brother.

+In Him,
Vlad
Danny Kazam
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Jesus's parables were meant to explain spiritual mysteries so we could understand. This is not neccessary anymore because Jesus has already revealed the mysteries to us using parables. We don't need object lessons to help explain spiritual mysteries. There is also a huge difference in how we and why we use object lessons and why Jesus used parables.

I agree that the magic waters down the message.
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sirbrad
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Never, but if they did I would say "Excellent, I did my job well!" Smile Some magicians are not afraid to "offend" and challenge the audience's beliefs. Magicians like The Amazing Jonathan for example live for that kind of stuff.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Vlad_77
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Quote:
On Jun 15, 2015, sirbrad wrote:
Never, but if they did I would say "Excellent, I did my job well!" Smile Some magicians are not afraid to "offend" and challenge the audience's beliefs. Magicians like The Amazing Jonathan for example live for that kind of stuff.



I am with you on challenging audience's beliefs. I'm not a gospel magician but if I were, I would challenge for instance a group pf protestants with my Eastern Orthodox views. BUT, I have and DO you magic to illustrate issues about species extinction, care for the environment, and, for very adult audiences, I have performed some routines that I've reworked that target people who are pro-death penalty. My personal ethics and more importantly my Orthodox Christian teaches that the death penalty - and war too - are immoral in ALL instances.

That said, I DO admire what these folks here do because while Christians for the most part agree on very basic issues such as Three Persons in One God, there are significant divisions on doctrinal issues such as the veneration (NOT worship) of Mary and the saints, the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ at the Eucharist, the Sacraments, Rapture theology, and many more. Most here in this section of the Café are protestants ranging from "high" church Lutherans all the way to evangelicals, fundamentalists, and pure Calvinists. Furthermore, there are in excess of 40,000 DISTINCT protestant denominations in the world and their differences are not confined just to modes and means of worship; within protestant Christianity there are even serious theological and social issue chasms. So in the face of all of those challenges, these folks DO try to surmount them to spread the word of the Living God and I admire them for that.

Sometimes challenging beliefs is a minefield and sometimes it's a way to challenge positively which I think you are advocating - and I agree.

Best,
Vlad
harris
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On the other hand....

If He could use a donkey ..........

Perhaps ......,.




Harris
Who had a point but lost it somewhere.

Please pray for myself and my musical friends as we prepare our music and
Puppetry for next weeks Convoy of Hope.
From when the Saints to All Gods Critters
got a place in the Band will be shared.
As the lyrics go in another tune go...
May our Worship be more than a song.

And as Buddy Greene wrote - it takes more than knowing right and wrong and knowing the words to
Gospel Songs.

Love and prayers

Brother Harris.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com
music, magic and marvelous toys
http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u
sirbrad
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Penn & Teller and Mac King as well don't mind offending people. I never have offended anyone though as I just do classic, fun magic. Luckily I have not had too many quacks over 35 years. Some believe what I do is real regardless of how much you tell them it is not, but most seem to know it is entertainment and just cool, fun magic.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Lou Is
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Quote:
On Jun 15, 2015, sirbrad wrote:
Penn & Teller and Mac King as well don't mind offending people.


I am surprised you would include Mac King. If anything, his act is the epitome of "family entertainment".
In what way is he offensive?
wwhokie1
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There are some people who will always be offended by something.

You cannot please everyone, just not possible. Most pastors will tell you that at any given time there is always someone in the church not happy about something. And when that person gets over it someone else will take their place.

What you need to do is to make sure that you are not being offensive, at least not in a bad way. Sometimes being offensive is good, Jesus certainly offended people. If someone is simply offended by you doing magic, there is nothing you can do about that. Double check all you do to make sure it is all appropriate, ask someone you trust to help you review it, and then realize that some people will still not be happy but that is okay.

Just accept the fact that what you do is not for everyone, but if done appropriately there are people who will appreciate it and benefit from it. Don't worry about the other people. Any pastor will tell you that a pastor has to have a thick skin to survive, and that is also true of anyone who does any teaching in front of a church.

The other option is to change your magic to just a fun magic show with no message. You add a message and you will face criticism. Actually, if you don't have a message then some will complain that you should have a message. Thick skin, and make sure all is appropriate.
sirbrad
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Mac King did a lot that many would consider offensive, like swallowing a gold fish or producing it from his mouth. I don't remmeber all that he did as he did most of it on the WGM TV shows many years ago. He does edgy magic as well not just family stuff.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
themagiciansapprentice
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Quote:
On Jul 10, 2015, sirbrad wrote:
Mac King did a lot that many would consider offensive, like swallowing a gold fish or producing it from his mouth. I don't remmeber all that he did as he did most of it on the WGM TV shows many years ago. He does edgy magic as well not just family stuff.


Mac King did those things to stand out in Vegas - any-one going there knows what will happen. It's totally different as a visiting preacher/magician in some-one else's Church where many may not have a clue what you will do.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
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