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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Overhand False Shuffle (24 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ddyment
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Claiming that a false riffle shuffle is superior to an overhand one is overly broad. Many of us (particularly the mentalists in the crowd) strive not to appear too accomplished with the handling of playing cards, preferring the goal to be one of impressing by magic, not manipulation. Overhand is how most laymen shuffle, and thus a good model to follow. In some parts of the world (New Zealand, for one), regular people never riffle shuffle: it's a technique only seen in the hands of magicians.
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chappy
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I completely agree with you Doug that a false overhand is a good option for those who strive not to appear too accomplished with the handling of playing cards, and your point that claiming that a false riffle shuffle is superior to an overhand one is overly broad.

But it is beyond overly broad and bordering on absurd to suggest that people in New Zealand never riffle shuffle. The use of tabled riffle shuffles is common in card games across New Zealand. There may be countries where it is not, but New Zealand is not one of them.

Best,
Greg
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Uli Weigel
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Not only in Germany but as far as I know in all of Europe the overhand shuffle IS the regular shuffle. Occasionally you meet someone who does riffle shuffles or some kind of dovetail shuffle, and in most cases they don't do it all that well. On the other hand, I have met people who questioned the fairness of my riffle shuffle, and I'm talking about a regular, smooth riffle shuffle, not a false one. Go figure.
ddyment
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Chappy claimed:
Quote:
... The use of tabled riffle shuffles is common in card games across New Zealand.

I've been told by two lifelong New Zealanders that they've never seen a layperson do a riffle shuffle, so there are obviously differences of opinion on the matter (and I have insufficient personal experience to have an opinion). But the expressed concern remains unchanged.
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chappy
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Doug, apologies if my using the word absurd to describe something in your earlier post caused any offence. My post was not intended that way.

I'd like to consider my post as a "reply" rather than a "claim". Much of what is shared here is a "claim" if you like to put things that way.

My only intention here is to provide perhaps a more relevant perspective regarding the use of riffle shuffles by laypeople in New Zealand, with the hope it might help more correctly inform members here at the café, and provide greater contextual information to this topic. My perspective is based on having played in many private home and bar room card games throughout different areas of New Zealand and having performed (exclusively card magic and gambling demonstrations) in many other places across the country.

The use of the riffle shuffle IS common and widespread. Perhaps 20 or 30 years ago it was a little different, and it may be less common amongst the older population.

At the card table, or when performing seated at a table, most laypeople will use or attempt a tabled riffle shuffle. I'd agree that people performing with cards in a stand-up situation would encounter more use of the overhand shuffle, just not because "regular people never riffle shuffle" but rather because it is easier to overhand shuffle when standing up and without a surface, than it is to execute an in the hands riffle shuffle. I mention these things because a person's opinion about the different shuffles people use is going to be linked to how often they see laypeople shuffle cards and in what context.

For example, it would not be especially balanced to base ones understanding of how common a type of shuffle is across an entire country based on the choice of shuffle used by lay volunteers in one routine using cards in a stand-up act.

Doug, you are welcome to believe anything you choose, but it is my opinion that the information you received from the two people you mention, is limited by the limited contexts in which they are exposed to laypeople shuffling, and possibly just very out of date.

Best,
Greg
FARO FUNDAMENTALS, DETAILS OF DECEPTION and THE DEVIL'S STAIRCASE at www.thedevilsstaircase.com
RiderBacks
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: What is that supposed to mean? Please explain.


I just meant it's exceedingly difficult to pull off. What I'd want out of a deceptive, complete overhand false shuffle is the ability to do it anytime without any preparation. In short, I wouldn't want to have to crimp before the false shuffle. And that'd probably be one of the best ways to handle this request. But again, not a route I'd want to go. I use crimps sparingly. I am not familiar with Dan Fisman's complete false OH shuffle. Maybe I'll have to look at it. I do like my OH shuffles, and I do not know have any good, complete false OH shuffles.

In my experience (in the US), laymen almost *always* use tabled riffle shuffles. It is very, very rare for me to find laymen doing OH shuffles. Now it is true that laymen *never* *ever* *ever* do an in-the-hands riffle shuffle. It is not easy to pull that off effortlessly and elegantly! Of course, if you are performing for people who only ever see OH shuffles, that would be some reason to favor the OH shuffle. But the tabled riffle, where the deck is held on the short ends, is commonplace in the US. (The uncommon variation is the magician's version, where the deck is riffled on the table from the long ends.)

So yes, there is much to think about here. There is nothing wrong with thing about your audience's expectations! But I have never seen a riffle shuffle questioned. And I have never had an in-the-hands riffle shuffle questioned. You can actually do an in-the-hands push-through false riffle shuffle if you want. But I don't like the stripping action unless it's followed by further fancy shuffling such as an Up the Ladder sequence (which might well get questioned and can't be done non-tabled.)
Uli Weigel
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Quote:
On Oct 16, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: What is that supposed to mean? Please explain.


I just meant it's exceedingly difficult to pull off. What I'd want out of a deceptive, complete overhand false shuffle is the ability to do it anytime without any preparation. In short, I wouldn't want to have to crimp before the false shuffle.


Well, I use half a dozen convincing full deck overhand false shuffles and none of them need a crimp.
RiderBacks
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Quote:
On Oct 17, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: Well, I use half a dozen convincing full deck overhand false shuffles and none of them need a crimp.


Ok. But I agree with the following remark, made in 1984:

Quote:
I don't believe that a good complete deck overhand shuffle has ever been developed. I think that with enough practice, this one can fill that void.


I'll side with history and work with the riffle. Maybe the past thirty years have seen vast improvements in complete OH false shuffles. But good false riffles have been around much longer and have been improved upon for much longer still.
Harry Lorayne
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Interesting that nobody here is familiar with the couple of full-deck overhand shuffles that I published in APOCALYPSE.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

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RickDangerous
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2015, TazBo wrote:
My favourite overhand shuffle that looks the most natural and very easy to do is "Full Deck Retention False overhand shuffle by Dan Fishman"

The only place I know that you can buy this shuffle is:

Ninja Tossed Out Deck by Patrick Redford - DVD
OR
in Patrick Redfords Book Square available from :
http://www.patrickredford.com/square.html

But if you Google it, I'm sure you can get a demonstration of what it looks like.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Dan+Fi......+Fishman

imo THE best false overhand shuffle
"Reality is what you can get away with."
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Nicolino
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Seconded. Looks absolutely deceptive.
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ddyment
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Also excellent are Dan Garrett's "Underhanded Overhand Shuffle" and the Mead-Kennedy Shuffle.
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RiderBacks
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That Dan Fishman shuffle looks great. Might have to buy that... Going to look at some reviews now! The shuffle doesn't seem to be advertised with either of the referenced works, which is odd.
magicfish
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Bob King. Next topic.
RiderBacks
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Ok. So I've put some work into researching Dan Fishman's false overhand shuffle. A prior post pointed to this Redford demonstration of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzR1O6wiBw

Thing is, YouTube is not the only place Redford has demonstrated this shuffle. And while the YouTube version looks pretty great, at least to my eyes, every move is quite clearly flashed in another video version Redford has put out. (Patrick, maybe at least set the other version to not be catalogued by search engines? That might help somewhat, though it won't completely fix matters.) The flashes there clearly make it look as if something odd or off is happening. Nevertheless, those flashes can be overcome by paying attention to angles and, of course, by misdirection. I take no points off this false shuffle for its angle sensitivity or being able to cover it with misdirection (which should always be used anyway.) And I have no objection to the use of short runs. This shuffle is a giant leap forward, and I feel like an ass for not thinking of it myself. This is, without a doubt, the absolute best complete false overhand shuffle I know of. I will be incorporating it! It gets the Riderbacks seal of approval. This is, really, the holy grail of completely false overhand shuffles. As an extra bonus, this should be fairly simple for most experienced cardicians to add to their arsenal.
TRI6KED
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
Ok. So I've put some work into researching Dan Fishman's false overhand shuffle. A prior post pointed to this Redford demonstration of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQzR1O6wiBw

Thing is, YouTube is not the only place Redford has demonstrated this shuffle. And while the YouTube version looks pretty great, at least to my eyes, every move is quite clearly flashed in another video version Redford has put out. (Patrick, maybe at least set the other version to not be catalogued by search engines? That might help somewhat, though it won't completely fix matters.) The flashes there clearly make it look as if something odd or off is happening. Nevertheless, those flashes can be overcome by paying attention to angles and, of course, by misdirection. I take no points off this false shuffle for its angle sensitivity or being able to cover it with misdirection (which should always be used anyway.) And I have no objection to the use of short runs. This shuffle is a giant leap forward, and I feel like an ass for not thinking of it myself. This is, without a doubt, the absolute best complete false overhand shuffle I know of. I will be incorporating it! It gets the Riderbacks seal of approval. This is, really, the holy grail of completely false overhand shuffles. As an extra bonus, this should be fairly simple for most experienced cardicians to add to their arsenal.

I am glad to have pointed people in the direction for this shuffle and that you have found this shuffle usefull and hope many others give this a try, as it is the best overhand false full shuffle I have ever come across.
Zipposrsa
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Thanks TazBo - you did point me in the right direction. I think it is brilliant !!
Mike
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magicfish
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It's decent, but not nearly as good as Bob King's.
rapmr
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In which book/dvd do you find Bob King's false shuffle?
Uli Weigel
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Bob King's false overhand shuffle can be found in "The Annotated Erdnase" by Darwin Ortiz. It's a variation on the Erdnase false shuffle.
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