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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
There is already a topic about this that I found using the Magic Café's search engine using the word “lie”. It's at: Food for thought » » Do you lie for a living?.
I gave detailed opinion there, but to summarize, some magicians lie, others don’t. Magicians who are actors don’t lie.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Lying or not, it's a form of treatment many seek and even PAY money for.
This reminds me of my recent visit to "Dick's Last Resort" in the West End of Dallas. I had no idea what I was in for during this office birthday celebration. Upon arriving late, I noticed one open seat at the end of our reserved table. Next to that seat was a lady laying back with arm over the back of her chair. She literally sighed and said "Ugh! I suppose you wanna sit down too!" Turns out she was our waitress! For the next hour she abused us unlike anything I'd ever seen. Someone asked for a napkin and she threw hundreds in the air over our table. She then threw an entire box of straws at us and hollered: "You got everything you need now?" I was completely shocked, as I wasn't getting it just yet. I actually thought, for a moment, that she had lost her mind and didn't care if she lost her job that day. The male waiter then went over to the birthday girl with her drink and said "Here you go you drunk *****". He proceeded to snap a balloon against the back of her head over and over again. She slightly protested and he then said: "I think you have an attitude problem missy!” He then picked her up in a bear hug and wrestled her across the restaurant (patrons watching - some laughing others dropping jaws) and laid her on another table while pulling and pushing on her feet - knocking condiments all over the floor. Upon finishing with my appetizer (cheese covered fries) waitress came by and said: "You done with this ****?" She also grabbed the office manager's cell phone, during his phone conversation, and told his wife "Yeah honey.... He’s in a gay bar right now". There were a dozen more incidents. I even asked the waitress if I could ask for her by name if I brought Mom and Dad for what they'll be told will be a "formal dinner". She said: "Oh honey I'll abuse the living hell out of them if you want". Hahahahaha! By the end of our 90-min. meal and visit, I lost count of the potential lawsuits had this happened anywhere else. The point here is they were all in the restaurant/service industry but ACTORS as well. Turns out you go there to be abused while eating good food! Knowing they are actors playing a role of an annoyed waiter/waitress allows us and them to play along with the act (lying?) and pay for it as we enjoy such treatment - or at least those that frequent the joint. If you're ever in the Dallas West End, stop in at "Dick's Last Resort" for some good food and great abuse - a real breath of fresh air from the traditional treatment |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sounds good, though you can get that anytime for real in NY. No disputing taste though.
Accordingly there must be some who've read Duchamp and are merely exploring the applications of gun show items to performance art. I prefer it when people keep their lies to themselves. More simply put: Entertainers lie FOR their audience. Most others lie for their own interests. In my opinion this is a difference that distinguishes the two subjects.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Nice summary Jon.
Jack
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Randy Sager Elite user 409 Posts |
I think if you asked a very good actor/actress if he/she lies when he plays a part,they would tell you no I am that person. So I think we should become a magician when we perform. It isn't lying that we do we are acting,at least we should be acting.
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Randy,
Having acted in several theatre productions myself, I can really relate to what you are saying. When you put it the way you just did, it suddenly takes on a different perspective, and it all becomes really clear to me the view I need to be adopting here. Thanks for setting me straight.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
In reading back on a few of these posts I'm also reminded of Jack Nicholson and his role as the Joker. According to Jack's wife, he remained in his role as the Joker (Batman movie) for six months after the movie! He literally dressed and acted as him while chasing his wife around the house. Not sure he was lying to himself or his wife. He submurged himself in that character and remained there for quite sometime.
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Randy Sager Elite user 409 Posts |
Daffydoug.
You’re welcome. It actually took me about ten years into magic to really realize how important that is. What made it hit home was watching Slydini in Las Vegas in the coffee shop of a casino. It was not one of his effects that did it for me but a bit of mime. I realized then how important acting and believing in what you are doing are. |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Randy,
Once again you hit home with your example about Slydini. He taught that, for example, if we want the spectators to believe that our hand contains, say, a book of matches, even though in reality the hand is empty, the matches having been lapped moments ago, we must convey the BELIEF with our eyes, our face, our body language, everything. In other words, we must bring ourselves to believe that the hand contains the phantom object, in order to convey that to the audience so that they too may believe. I suppose that could be called lying, or acting, whatever you want to say, just so long as you realize it is expedient in order to get the audience to experience the mystery of the vanish that will follow. I was hoping that you could share more details of the mime that you referred to in your post. Randy Stewart, That was an interesting example that you shared about Jack Nicholson. It points out the mindset that a professional actor takes toward his role. That is why Nicholson is so great. I also heard a similar story about Danny Devito when he was playing the Penguin. He was just in character every waking moment, same as Nicholson. I think we as magicians have much we could gleen and apply from these two great actors.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
It might help to learn a bit about basic acting technique and how to SAFELY use method before taking extreme examples of immersion as a model to emulate.
The 'penguin' did not have to drive to work and be around co-workers and family. And the 'joker' did not have to attend AA meetings while in character. Sure it's fun to develop one's personae while puttering around the house. Not so safe to do this at the post office or while negotiating a home loan.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
Well said, Mr. Townsend. Anyway, I think the idea of stage characters is over used. Why can we not be ourselves? I don't change my persona when performing, other than adapt certain parts to different people. Then again, I'm considered an eccentric by many...so maybe people develop stage characters because they don't feel comfortable with themselves on stage, and they feel even less comfortable with their stage characters in life?
:stout: |
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Randy Sager Elite user 409 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-02-21 21:25, daffydoug wrote: I would be glad to share the mime bit that Slydini did. It was in 1982 in Vegas at the Frontier hotel casino. Steve Pellegrino and I were sitting in the coffee shop with Alan Alan and some others along with Slydini. Slydini did several effects for us plus we had a mini session. But as I said that was noting compared to the mime bit which was this. Slydini took a hold of Alan Alan's tie and did the old bit of acting as if he was pulling a thread from Alan's tie. After the "thread" was pulled out Slydini "pulled" a needle from his lapel and then proceeded to try and thread the needle missing several times then finally getting it threaded and the thread sewn back into Alan's tie. Even though there was nothing there we could have sworn at times that we could see the thread and see light reflecting off of the needle. It was the most memorable thing of the whole evening. Your right his facial expressions helped sells it as well. My writing it up doesn't do it justice I'm sure but at least you get the idea of what we saw that evening. |
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Glenn Watson Special user 781 Posts |
Don't most spectators know they are being told a story? Don't many of them try to catch the magician, explain the trick, or ask you to do the trick again naming some new condition you must add to the trick? I have never heard a spectator say, I can't believe the magician lied.
Must you come right out and say some of what I tell you won't be true. I believe it is an unspoken contract that I will try to deceive the spectator through word and deed. True, technically, I am not telling the truth but all parties know that going in and even the spectators realize it is necessary to achieve the effect. Many have fun trying to discover where the "lie" took place. The too perfect theory is often mentioned, cautioning to allow the spectator some place to go with his theories. They theorize because they what they have seen and heard can't be true. It is accepted in our society to tell our children about the Easter Bunny, Santa and the tooth fairy. When they finally find out the truth do they say, how could you lie to me all these years? Most children join their parents and keep the secret from little sisters and brothers. When it is for entertainment stories are permissable. Especially when the audience knows it is a story that they came to hear and see. Oblique |
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts |
The human condition is such that, for most people, there are always signs that someone is lying. Poker players call them tells. There are very few people in the world who can effectively lie without the tells and still remain in our society as a productive member. If you really believe you are lying to someone or a group of people, you will tell on yourself. The trick to it is to not believe you are lying. Actors are probably the most sucessful at this. Well, them and the top Poker players. If you really want to perform Magic and not just a collection of tricks, learn that you are not lying. You are performing yes, but you are absolutely NOT lying. As long as you are lying, you will be performing tricks. You may perform them well, but you will not be performing real magic.
Samuel
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Samuel'
That is excellent and very profound advice. I will do my best to adopt it and take it to heart. Thanks for sharing! Randy, Thanks for sharing that story. I think that being able to sit and talk with the Master, Slydini, would have surely been one of the greatest priveledges any magician could possibly wish for. It would also be considered an honor. Don't take this the wrong way, but I really envy you! I would have given anything in the world to be able to sit with Slydini. You are one of the very fortunate few! I only knew Slydini through his books, but it was there that I learned many valuable lessons in true misdirection, and what I like to term "Pure Magic" To me, Slydini is at the top of my list of the greatest magicians who ever lived. He was in a class all by himself. He was, the undeniable MASTER!
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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JJDrew Loyal user Arizona 221 Posts |
I agree that magic is not lying but acting, but if you still can't shake the feeling that you're lying, consider this. There are good lies and bad lies. A good lie has good motives. If I have to lie to someone as part of planning a surprise party for that person, I'll lie all day and not feel guilty.
Performing a magic trick is like lying so that the party will be a surprise. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
A good lie?
Wow, that involves not only lying to oneself but also lying to people who have yet to challenge your motivations. Please have a good read of recent history and examine the beliefs expressed by those who did what they were told, ordered or felt to be the most good for the most people. Simpler yet, examine the notion of 'good' in your evaluation of 'motive'. Consider how you might experience a few minutes around people who dealt with you from that utilitarian position.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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JJDrew Loyal user Arizona 221 Posts |
I know that the concepts of good and bad are vague eerie terms. I used them for the sake of convenience and because I didn't feel that this was the place to write a 30-page philosophical treatise. I could PM you one if you'd like.
I was simply pointing out that there are circumstances in which one would not normally feel guilty about lying and the lie would not be condemned by the others around them, including those lied to, see the above example of the surprise party. I agree that it was a gross oversimplification of the subject. The post was written in response to an unspoken assumption on this thread that all lies are things that one should feel guilty about. It is the telegraphing of that guilt that becomes problematic for magicians. I questioned the need to feel guilty. You're entertaining people, not harming them, and (hopefully) not allowing them to believe that your tricks are anything more than illusions. What is there to feel guilty about? My terminology was not wisely chosen and I apologize. I hope this clarifies things. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
One can believe and as they see fit.
Please presume not upon those who are other than One. Not so Swift here either.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
Why is this not the place to write thirty page philosophical treatsies? I'll read it! We could use more really in depth philosophy...stuff you can really lose yourself in...
:stout: |
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