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matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Hi everyone,
I am writing this post because I believe I have come up with a brand new mathematical equation for arriving at the number 9 (& it's cool too!), let me explain. In many tricks such as Magicard by Mark Jenest it is necessary for the magician to have a spectator arrive at the number 9 by using a series of mathematical equations. My problem is that every time I have seen this performed the math always seems to be very contrived. This is where my idea comes in! Without giving too much away just yet it allows you to get the spectator to arrive at the number 9 with only a few additions and subtractions (no multiplications) and best of all it can be done without having to ask a spectator to think of a number between 10 and 20 or any other contrived stuff like that. It is a very practical and MAKE SENSE kind of method. What are your methods of forcing the number 9? Let me know as I plan on releasing this method to the magical fraternity if indeed it is new! Looking forward to your feedback, Matthew Johnson. 

landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5024 Posts 
Here's an easy way:
1) choose any number with different digits 2) reverse the digits 3) subtract the lesser number from the greater number 4) add up all the digits in the result 5) repeat step 4 until there is only one digit. Or here's an even easier way: 1) choose any number 2) add up all the digits 3) subtract your result from your original number 4) continue adding the digits until only one digit remains Here's yet another way: 1) choose any number 2) put a zero on the end of the number 3) subtract the original number 4) add all the digits until you get one digit Jack Shalom
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. 

matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Thanks Jack!
I appreciate you answering my thread. Those methods look great although they still sound a little contrived, what I mean by this is not to be rude but to say that the math does not have any reason for being, or may be it does! What patter would you offer to support the math and make it appear normal? Do you know what I mean?! Just asking someone to go through this mathematical problem to arrive at a number would appear a little odd to the spectator, as far as the spectator is concerned why not just ask them to pick a number. The fact is we do have to go through some kind of mathematical equation to get to the number 9, but every version I have seen up to now does not offer a logical reason for being, it simply sounds as though the spectator does not have any free choice and has to go through the magicians little routine in order to reach the number he wants. I have come up with a method that uses something personal to the spectator and therefore has a logical reason for being. This is then echoed in the patter used to describe the math, which again is logical to the spectator. I don't know may be I am making a mountain out of a molehill but if we can make something better why not give it our best shot. Looking forward to your thoughts out there. Matthew. 

rgranville Elite user Boston area 462 Posts 
For ideas on how to justify the arithmetic behind numberbased tricks in general (as well as to the methods discussed here), I recommend Richard Busch's Number... Please.
:pepper: 

matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Hi rgranville,
Thanks for the tip regarding the book. I will look into that as I think the words we use to describe the things we do and why we do them are very important! …More important than the things we do in many cases. Yours with many thanks, Matthew Posted: Feb 17, 2004 7:34pm  I am looking for a few more suggestions on the math to arrive at the number 9 and then I will post my thoughts to the routine I have come up with. Don't let the whole math thing put you off. I don't do math tricks far from it, however I do think that this little bit of math magic that I have to offer would be of use to many magicians across the board. 

Scott Cram Inner circle 2677 Posts 
My two favorite methods for getting numbers that have a digital root of nine (all of which can be reduced to the single digit of nine via the usual method):
From Jim Steinmeyer's "Impuzzibilities": Ask someone to take out some dimes and pennies  as many as they want, but at least one of each. Ask them to total the value of the coins in cents, and remember the total. From that number, subtract the total number of coins. The total will be always be a multiple of 9. (For example, let's say they have 4 dimes and 8 pennies. The number of cents is 48, and the number of coins is 12. 4812=36  a multiple of 9!) From Harry Lorayne's "Apocalypse": You hand the spectator a calculator (preferably a simple 4function calculator), and show that the numbers are arranged in a 3x3 square: 789 456 123 You ask them to enter any three digit number created from any row, column or diagonal entered in any order (if you choose the 159 diagonal, for example, you can enter 159, 195, 519, 591, 915 or 951). You then tell them to hit the multiplication sign, and then enter a threedigit number from any other row, column or diagonal. This number will also be a multiple of nine  albeit a very large one. 

Nir Dahan Inner circle Munich, Germany 1390 Posts 
You can use 3 blank memo cards, write the numbers "1" "2" "3" on the 3 pieces, 1 number on each piece, then turn over the pieces and continue writing "4", "5" and "6" on the other side of so you get the numbers arranged 3/6 2/5 1/4.
Mix the pieces of paper and make sure the numbers 1,2,3 are showing face up, turn around ask the spectator to turn around 1 piece of paper while your back is turned, and sum up the numbers he sees which are now face up. (They will always total 9.) This solution doesn't require any summing up of digits and looks quite fair. Its main disadvantage is that it is easy to backtrack. So either remove the pieces or switch in pieces with other number distributions. Hope this helps. Nir 

hoodrat Veteran user Southern California 384 Posts 
Scott,
Really liked your method of using a bunch of pennies and dimes to generate a multiple of nine. Very unique! 

magicgeorge Inner circle Belfast 4299 Posts 
A dime is 10c?
That method is kind of cute I suppose in the UK one could use pennies, ten pence and pound coins. 

Scott Cram Inner circle 2677 Posts 
Quote:
On 20040218 04:45, hoodrat wrote: Correction  you like Jim Steinmeyer's method using a bunch of pennies and dimes to generate a multiple of nine. It is ingenious, though, isn't it? Quote:
On 20040218 11:15, magicgeorge wrote: Yes, a dime is 10 cents. If you use something like a pound coin, I'd remind your audience to calculate the whole thing in pence. You don't want them to try and calculate 1.41 pounds minus 6 coins. 141 pence minus 6 coins would be preferable. 

matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Thanks for you response!
I like the pennies idea and the cards idea. I like these because they add a little more substance to the run of the mill math problem. My method (I believe it's original, let me know!), uses math just the same as the other methods but I believe has a little more reason for being, anyway here it is. The math starts with the spectator’s age, anyone’s age, as long as it is between 10 and 99 you don't have to know the age. The spectator adds the two digits of their age together e.g. 57, 5+7=12. Now they minus the 12 from their age, e.g. 5712=45. Finally add the two digits in the last number to get 9 e.g. 45, 4+5=9. This method always works without you knowing the age as long as the age is between 10 and 99. Now because the number used in the method is of a personal nature to the spectator we could use patter such as this, Magician  "I have never met you before so if I could tell you how old you are that would be kind of cool, right!" "Most people could probably guess within a few years but if I could tell you exactly, that would not be a bad trick". "However if I said exactly how old you were in front of all these people at the party that would be kind of rude as you may not want them to know how old you are, so I tell you what, lets play around a little with the numbers in your age so as to mask or disguise it from these guys!" "Take the digits in your age and add them together, you get a new number, if I could tell you that number that would be a better a trick, however some of the smart people in the crowd could probably still do the math, so lets disguise it even more." "You know that new number you got, minus it from your age, you did that great! You are now thinking of a one digit number" At this point they will say no as they more than likely have a two digit number, it is now you throw in a casual joke "Oh, I'm sorry your not quite as old as I thought you were, I'm Going to be in trouble for that one!" "Ok well take the two digits and add them together. Now you have a one digit number right, RIGHT!" The number is 9 do with it what you want. It is hard for me to describe the feeling that goes with this patter, believe me it reads much longer than it plays. I wanted to offer you some of the patter and performance that goes into selling the thing. What do you think? Have you seen it before? I look forward to your response. Matthew. 

balducci Loyal user Canada 230 Posts 
Your words are very nice, I can see it being a disarming approach to use.
Of course, your numerical method / mathematical equation is exactly the same as the dimes and pennies one. (It uses the tens and ones in the exact same way.)
Make America Great Again!  Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No."  Craig T. Nelson, actor.


hoodrat Veteran user Southern California 384 Posts 
Matthew,
I like your idea of using a person's age as long as it's between 10 and 99. One could also use the last two digits of a year as long as that year was any one from 1910 to 1999. 

balducci Loyal user Canada 230 Posts 
Upon reflection, I see that this dimes and pennies / 10s and 1s trick works for any number, so long as you are counting in base 10, and so long as you are not starting with a single digit number,
e.g., 7892  (7+8+9+2) = 7866, 7+8+6+6 is divisible by 9, etc., further reduce to 9 from here using your favourite approach. 235652  (2+3+5+6+5+2) = 235629, 2+3+5+6+2+9 is divisible by nine, etc. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here, I don't know if this is widely known or not. Anyway, this would let you work the trick with $100, $10, and $1 bills. Or you could use the year of birth, e.g., 1964  (1+9+6+4) = 1944, 1+9+4+4 is divisible by 9, etc.
Make America Great Again!  Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No."  Craig T. Nelson, actor.


matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Thanks guys for responding to my message.
Balducci thank you for the kind words on the patter. (The same Balducci?) Lets face it any trick where we are asking the spectator to do some math is going to be a little boring unless we give it some good patter, after all what is a Ceasar salad without the dressing! Hoodrat thanks for your kind words too. Of course you don't have to know the number as you can tell just buy looking at a person whether they fit into the correct category. Do you guys think by having a combination of the age idea with the patter, I have something I could publish on a DVD without ripping other people off. Let me know, Cheers, Matthew 

balducci Loyal user Canada 230 Posts 
Actually, my Balducci name is taken from Gaetano Balducci (a dead Italian actuary who developed a famous principle used in insurance mathematics). The magical connection is honestly just a coincidence.
I don't think you would be ripping anyone off if you were to use your presentation on a DVD. Of course, you'd need a lot of additional material to make the DVD worthwhile.
Make America Great Again!  Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No."  Craig T. Nelson, actor.


matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Balducci,
Interesting! (About your name). I have enough material right now for a couple of DVDs. This would be the only math bit on there. Keep a look out for the 1st DVD towards the later part of 2004. Cheers, matthew. 

Lior Inner circle 1937 Posts 
I think that the age thing is very old.
I remember using it in an old web site. I had to do the Denmark Elephant. It wasn't my idea and I don't remember where I got it. I will try to find the book. Lior
New shop: 1A magic
You can buy the selfie card trick. The Zoom project Talk To The Screen https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 

matthewjohnson Loyal user Canada 239 Posts 
Lior,
You have seen the age thing before? I would be interested if you could let me know where you saw it and most importantly how it was presented with the patter. The patter is what makes the routine, so if the book does not offer any patter let me know and I will go ahead, but credit the book also. Thanks, Matthew 

Lior Inner circle 1937 Posts 
I found what was on my website on 1993.
It was interactive effect that said that you had to be older than 18 to get in. Then there was the "think of your age ... and all the math" Then it went to think of country that start with ... Then I did a joke that Pamela Anderson face blinked on the screen and it said again "don't think about Pamela, Think about the animal and country" and only now The gray elephant picture was shown. I am sure that I saw the age ploy in one of Martin Gardner's books or something like that. Lior
New shop: 1A magic
You can buy the selfie card trick. The Zoom project Talk To The Screen https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 

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