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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I didn't want to cloud the threads of people arguing over mentalism and magic...and what I want to say is a bit further away from that discussion anyway...
but first... i think that we argue about it from the wrong viewpoint - it ultimately is in the eye of the beholder (or beer-holder)...for some people, no matter what you do or how strong it is - they will internalise it as a trick...might be a mighty fine mystifying one...but a trick regardles... (insert people who will say the opposite here, but with extreme examples, rather than realistic ones) there are multiple truths out there - always and forever...that will never change...so people will attribute meaning and labels based from their own viewpoint... and that branches from "its all tricks" to "oh my goodness, he/she is gifted with some kind of psychic ability!" and all things inbetween... the argument is really one of consistency - if you go to an italian place for food, you would not expect to be served a microwaved chinese ready meal would you? and yet, maybe there's an unusual angle of someone doing an italian-asian influenced/hybrid dish...that might spoil the atmosphere, or it might get people talking... here's the trouble - its usually exceptionally gifted and talented people who can make it work...and they are few and far between...that doesn't mean you can't try or aim for something different...it just means you have to be very self-critical/honest with yourself...and that is something not very many people are capable of doing... to support that argument - go watch the early weeks of the x-factor auditions...plenty of people utterly convinced that they are different, already stars, that their way works - when it honestly doesn't...and no amount of telling them will change that...ever...its always someone or something else's fault...they do not see or hear what the world sees... and that cuts both ways - we may have read all the best italian cookery books, had lessons maybe, tried it out ourselves - and because of that, you think you're on the right path...you might be, but you need to let others taste what you've cooked...YOU might like it, I mean, most people can enjoy the smell of their own farts if they have to (some are proud), but it doesn't mean others wanna try it... none of this means you have to stop - it just means until you are prepared to stop, share, and take the feedback on the chin, it won't ever change... I mean, you charge ahead and build a restaurant, get the flyers printed, even pay small sites to give you good reviews or even psuedo made up awards for your place (when really you've just be judged against no one else, or people in different categories)... there's a smart way of doing it though - you can listen, share, try it out... I would say if you got the chance to study under a master of pasta making, you'd wanna grab that chance...because you get to absorb their thoughts - that doesn't mean you copycat...you use them as the backbone, the safety net, safe in the knowledge that something works a certain way... THEN you can experiment, rinse and repeat...take it back to the master pasta maker, and if you feel its going nowhere, you can still thank them for their time and go your separate ways, with respect and honesty throughout... isn't that wild? i don't think mentalism will ever die out - because there will always be those out there who want to make a living from it, and will learn the hard way (sooner or later) that the holes in their recipe become too apparent to others,...and again, the ones who become trailblazers, who add something new - we need to acknowledge that we are all not that...sometimes our skills are elsewhere, and what we want to be may not be our best version of "we"...again, never stop trying, yet also if you do discover something in what you do that others can't/won't do - then be glad and work even harder on it....play to your strengths... i am highly disorganised at times, I do not think I could "work it" full time, and generally I have worked very hard on what I want to achieve, and what my failings are (too many to list)...however, at all times, I have felt it my duty to self-educate as best I can...and part of that is studying and listening to those who HAVE done things that I never could... if I were a butcher, I would never tell a surgeon how to make a cut - even though both our jobs require dexterity, thought, a subtle touch and deep concentration...even though I understand certain things carry over...and no matter how close they are in some weird ways - they are still different enough for me to try my hand at butchery without consulting a butcher... there is so much joy to be had in magic and mentalism, why not take pride in the differences? ever looked into the word magician and abracadabra? definitely not cheesy and spangly waistcoated...what is missing is pride and respect more than anything else.. you can learn it all, you can strive to understand all the views out there and find the path that you feel most comfortable walking...reading up on all the greats - don't you see how different they all are? and how some contradict the other? but the thing is, it works for the individual - because they are consistent... character development is the hardest thing to clarify - especially in this modern age...and yet we worry about the labels we call ourselves, without digging deep into the history of all the allied arts... here's the funny thing, with this thread - if anyone replies, they will take everything I have said and it will run through their own personal world-view filter... and we will get counter upon counter arguments... which is perfectly natural - and is the exact same thing people do who watch you entertain others... my other thought is that sometimes, frameworks and structures can sometimes be so rigid that they become either brittle or too suffocating...and no matter what else is added, it will never be good enough... do you want what you do to be seen as real? why? what is the positive and negative of that? do you want what you do to be seen as a possibility? why? pros and cons what do you want? why do you want it? what are its pros and cons? can you make it interesting, unique and workable? can you make some kind of living from it? do you want to? if you do, who would be best to listen to and why? what if you don't like what you hear? why don't you like it? we spend too much time asking the small mundane questions on forums, and often steer away from the bigger ones...
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
I'd like to be honest and state that I didn't read the recent thread on magic and mentalism.
Please forgive me if I misunderstand the context of your post, Iain. But since you started an new thread I thought I might as well just answer to this thread. If what you say is true, Iain. That in the end it is not in the performer's hands if people perceive what he does as real or not. Then why put the focus there? I never understood why people are so focused on that point. At least not as long as we talk about a theatrical presentation. If you make your living as a medium/reader then obviously it is a totally different subject... But speaking from a theatrical context: I personally don't care if people think that what I do is real or not. That doesn't mean that I don't try as hard as I can to convince people who see me perform that I am real. But in the end I don't care if they do believe it. Because what they see on stage is not me. I want them to get invested in the theatrical piece that I am performing. I want them to get sad, happy and uncertain of their believe system for the length of my show. If I can archive that by reading their thoughts then I will do that. If I could perform a torn and restored card during my mentalism show and could get my audience to feel the sentiment of how we often break the things we love the most and how we would sometimes wish we could bring them back together I would do it. If I could manage to touch them emotionally with that, then I would happily do that. I don't do it right now. But in the end I don't care if it's magic or mentalism. As long as I can touch an audience, let them experience emotions they might have not felt in some time, entertain and last but by no means least mystify them... that is what I want to do. I am sorry. Writing in english is exhausting for me. I'll take a break and continue another time. All the best, Axel |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
As I said in the other thread:
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I've stated my views and supported them with source materials, examples and excerpts from relevant histories and analyses dozens of times over the fourteen years I've been posting here. I really can't think of anything else to say on this subject that I haven't said before. Obviously, it is not within my power to convince any given audience that what I do is real. And that's never been my goal- which is simply to PRESENT it as real. Presenting it tongue-in-cheek or as a series of tricks substantially reduces its impact as has been demonstrated time and again. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
@Axel
So in my reality - you are neither magician nor mentalist...if I had to put a label on your example (of the torn and restored card) - then you are a.... metaphoricalist... if I were watching you, I would probably think two things at once "hey, he's doing a crazy bit of magic" and "hey, that's a lovely idea that is, its a nice piece of theatre.." - and then the rest of my thoughts would depend upon: whether I liked you how it was delivered if I felt it became too pompous, needy or cheesy or if I felt moved, touched, reminded of some scenario in my life i would never at any point, consider what you did with the card was "real", as in, you could really restore some torn up pieces of paper... but that's just my own filter/truth speaking... if I carried on watching you - and you then told me you could read my mind, I would (internally) say "well, he did a bit of magic just now, it was great...so what's this?" i would be interested... however - I would not consider for one moment, that the mind reading bit would be 'real' - as a) you've just done some magic and had a beautiful metaphor draped over it b) if I believed mind-reading was real and existed, I would not have wanted to see your TnR, because mind-reading sounds so exciting! show me all of your mind-reading menu please garcon... if however, by the third effect you did something else - I would not care how you labelled any of it, I would just allow myself to be engaged and enjoy the entertainment...and much like a film, I'd tell my friends about the bits I enjoyed the best...
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
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On Jul 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: bob - I am genuinely having a slow day (Pusser's overproof is probably to blame) - what would you say is the difference between those two points? if you present it as real, how is that different from trying to convince the audience that what you do is real?
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
The difference is that I don't care if an audience believes me or not. I present what I do as real because that gives it the most impact. My goal is simply to entertain and audience with mentalism. (And I believe I do that best by presenting it as the real thing.)
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Gotcha...thanks...
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, IAIN wrote: And I would love that. That is what I would aim for. Method should not be the main focus. Neither in my or in my audience's mind. And I agree that I am not a mentalist in the traditional way. But interestingly: As I become better in my theatrical performance I more often that before have people who I perform for in a casual enviroment percieve me as "real". That is one reason why I perform less and less for friends and in casual enviroments. I don't want to have to lie to people with whom I wish to have a serious and relaxed conversation for the next two hours... |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
...so Axel, what do you think would change about your persona and your act, if you altered it so it fitted within a classical mentalism style? and how would it change to fit a classical magic style? what would you say are the pro's and con's of both?
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
I am sorry Iain, but that is not how I think anymore.
I have been hold back a few times in my live by focusing on labels too much. I don't see any pro's and con's for me personally in deciding on one way to present what I do. And I don't think I can express myself efficient enough for a general discussion on that subject. While I value the tradition and theory of what we do quite a lot, there are other factors that I consider more important when creating a show for myself. Let me give you an example: I do a (probably methodically not very inventive, but presentational quite strong) piece in my show where I let a person write down a weakness of herself on one piece of paper and a strength of herself on another. Then followa a hypnotic bit during which she alternately focuses on the weakness (loosing her strength) and on the strength (getting it back). In the end after I get her out trance (in which she at one point imagines the weakness to disappear from the piece of paper and can't remember it anymore) and ask her to have a look at the piece of paper one more time, she finds that the writing has disappeared. This, in essence, turns the whole thing into a magic trick. But I do this on purpose as I acknowledge the possibility that there might be someone on stage one night, that is so very suggestible that the whole hypnosis-focus-on-you-weakness-focus-on-the-strength-thing gets a little bit too heavy for this person. So in the end I give her an “out”. By telling her that at least one part of the whole thing is just a simple magic trick. I don't think that it diminishes the theatrical impact of the routine. But I choose to do it for personal reasons and out of respect for the possibility that my participant might be “emotional vulnerable” if that makes any sense... |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I avoid that simply by never asking anyone to think of potentially embarrassing or overly personal information. I'm an entertainer, not a therapist.
Those who think that mentalists should strive to create a deep emotional or cathartic experience would do well to think about that. |
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
To put it in perspective:
What she writes down is never read out aloud nor mentioned. And I do all I can to avoid anything that could touch any therapeutic context. It is (I hope) a fantastic and mystical peace of entertainment with some hypnosis in between. There are other things I do in my presentation to prevent any emotional exhibition of my volunteer. The magic trick is just one piece of action I take to make sure of that. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
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On Jul 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: What do you think of the mentalists who have put out the routines about "cleansing a fear / phobia" via a p**K and a billet switch....?... and there are quite a few big names who have put those routines out....
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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DocBenWiz Special user Meridian, Idaho 992 Posts |
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On Jul 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Amen to that...! Wisdom from a Master, that speaks to me!
"Pay no attention to that strange man behind the curtain" (it's only "Doc Benjamin from the Amazing Wizardelia Wagon")
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On Jul 11, 2015, Dr Spektor wrote: The same thing that I think of anyone who practices therapy without a license. (Unless, of course, they actually ARE licensed. But even in that case I'd question the ethics of doing it outside of a one-on-one situation. I don't see how "cleansing" someone's fears or phobias is something that should be done publicly for entertainment purposes.) |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
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On Jul 12, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Amen brohim! If/when we ever meet I will treat you to a dinner for that comment. I am in 100% in agreement with you
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
For me, it all comes down to the fact that all any of us have are our own subjective perceptions of the world, biased by our experiences, expectations, apparent knowledge and beliefs. No one, even evangelistic skeptics, can really tell us what to believe. Likewise, our audiences will believe what they want, as experience has well demonstrated. We are really not in control of that as much as we might think. What we create for performance is our craft. How that is received and thus how our art is defined is determined, whether we like it or not, by our audiences.
Therefore, to me, these discussions really should focus on the craft of mystery performance and stop worrying about how it is received or as important, perceived.
John
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
That was my earlier point, John. My focus is on how I PRESENT the act.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 12, 2015, jstreiff wrote: interesting...so... ultimately - follow your own vision of how your 'act' should be, whatever it may be...and then the audience will interpret it as they see fit, or how their own personal life filter will perceive it?
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
First of all, Bob said it all already... and Axel: This is YOUR personal decision which road you go. But as an example which fits yours: While I didn't mind long, long time ago to do something with books and making e. g. a book page disappear a. s. o. I don't do anything like that anymore. I guess you understand why. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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