The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Striving to make manipulation feel more natural (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
SmileAndNod
View Profile
Veteran user
315 Posts

Profile of SmileAndNod
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hCzPhmdyus

What do you think? It's still pretty rough, and the finished product wouldn't be so repetitive. This was just kinda a proof of concept.
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22388 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
I recognize that as Salvano's card routine from his act. He has it on his Stage Card Magic DVD. I purchased it just to see his natural and deceptive front an back palm. You executed it very well. You don't have to flop your arms against your body though. It all depends on how you see your attitude toward what is happening. I got the message you were saying, Oh well, their gone.

I would say natural is a relative word in the case when it comes to manipulations. Are you showing dexterity or magic as in throwing cards into the air and they vanish, or dexterity where you are showing how cleaver you are. There is a difference. Most the manipulators on YouTube are showing dexterity and not magic these days.

Just remember, whatever theme you chose it should follow through during the entire routine.
SmileAndNod
View Profile
Veteran user
315 Posts

Profile of SmileAndNod
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I recognize that as Salvano's card routine from his act.


Oh man! I was really confused as to why I'd never seen someone do this before. I had never seen Salvano work before, that was fantastic. Idk why all card manipulators don't strive for that style.

Quote:
You don't have to flop your arms against your body though. It all depends on how you see your attitude toward what is happening. I got the message you were saying, Oh well, their gone.


One of my biggest pet peeves is magicians who keep their elbows bent for an "empty" hand. It's interesting to think about how the speed that I drop it changes the attitude. I'll definitely experiment with that. Thanks!

Quote:
I would say natural is a relative word in the case when it comes to manipulations. Are you showing dexterity or magic as in throwing cards into the air and they vanish, or dexterity where you are showing how cleaver you are. There is a difference. Most the manipulators on YouTube are showing dexterity and not magic these days.


I think most manipulators overprove every move which ends up making them more suspicious and less magical. This was my attempt to show both sides of the hand without calling attention to the fact that I am showing both sides of the hand. I think when magicians do the font and back palm over and over again with the hand extended it cheapens the effect.

Thanks for your feedback!
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22388 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, SmileAndNod wrote:
I think most manipulators overprove every move which ends up making them more suspicious and less magical. This was my attempt to show both sides of the hand without calling attention to the fact that I am showing both sides of the hand. I think when magicians do the font and back palm over and over again with the hand extended it cheapens the effect.


That is exactly what Salvano says.

http://www.salvano-jr.com/dvd-salvano.php

----------------------------------------------------------------

When I said, Flop your arms, I was not speaking of Salvano's sweeping motion to show the back of the hand. In another place at point you vanish the cards, you shrug your shoulders and flop your arms.
George Ledo
View Profile
Magic Café Columnist
SF Bay Area
2876 Posts

Profile of George Ledo
Bill made some really god points, and here's my two-cents'-worth.

We're looking at two different and separate things here: your mechanical moves and your presentation. Let's keep them separate for a moment.

The mechanics (the bp and so forth) look fine so far. With more practice, and especially if you review your videos over and over and look for the little things, it'll look even better.

As far as the presentation, you told us it's not there yet. Fine. But "natural" is a factor of who you are and why you're doing it. What was "natural" for Cardini would not have been "natural" for Channing Pollock. So this is a good time to start focusing on doing this for an audience: who are you, what are you saying to the audience, why are you doing it, how do you feel about it, how do you want them to feel about it, what else would you be doing in the same act, and so on and on. IOW, what's "natural" for you.

If the cards just vanish and reappear, and you don't know why, that's cool; just keep it consistent. If you're a magician and you're saying, I can do this, that's fine too; just keep it consistent. If you're saying, I'm a beginner, and I want to do magic for you, but I don't know where the cards go or why, that's fine too; just keep it consistent. If you just want to show skill, like many guys on YouTube, that's okay; do it that way. If it's a comedy act and everything goes wrong, or is totally disconnected, yup, that's fine too. There are a million-plus ways to do a manipulation act, but you want the audience to "get it" instead of wondering why you're doing it and why they should care.

I did a cards-and-doves act for several years many moons ago, and I started out like most of us: I was doing the routine (and I practiced and rehearsed so much I could do it in my sleep), but I didn't know why or what I was saying to the audience. The reception was okay: they were responding to the effects. It was later, when it all came together with my persona and I learned how to "push" the audience, that the reception became lots of times better because now they were responding to me as much as to the effects.

Looking forward to your next video!
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here"
Nick W
View Profile
Special user
515 Posts

Profile of Nick W
If you truly want a natural feel for your card work, you need to do it on the streets. hundreds of times. when the audience stays and wants you to do more, you are getting there. but when they walk away, you have work to do.

if you can do card manip on the streets and make people like it and want to stay for more, you are on the right track.
Anatole
View Profile
Inner circle
1814 Posts

Profile of Anatole
I would think doing card manipulation on the street would allow too many people to see where the cards are coming from.
I know Jeff Sheridan did card fan productions and all on the streets and in the parks of NYC, but I would guess that a lot of people could watch from the extreme sides, if not behind him, which of course would spoil the illusion. I think flourishes with a fanning deck (e.g.color-changing fans) would be great even when done surrounded. There are other silent routines of a manipulation nature that could be done surrounded--like some rope routines--such as Ted Collins's Panama Rope Mystery, Bing Germershausen/Horace Bennett's "Spaghetti Factory/Professor's Nightmare Routine," one-hand knots, the Virginia Mosquito, etc.

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
(The Virginia Mosquito is what I call the flourish where you hold a length of rope folded by the center and move your hand up and down so that it looks like the two lengths of folded rope are wings flapping up and down. What they are really doing is going in opposite circles, which creates the illusion that they are flapping up and down. Sort of like the old Clackers toy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLHftISLNHE)
But the rope looks much more like giant flapping wings.)
----- Sonny Narvaez
Nick W
View Profile
Special user
515 Posts

Profile of Nick W
"I would think doing card manipulation on the street would allow too many people to see where the cards are coming from. "

this is exactly where the fear is coming from, and is exactly why card manipulations do not look natural.
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
Look for a video of the latest stage grand prix FISM winner to see a truly creative guy with cards
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
SmileAndNod
View Profile
Veteran user
315 Posts

Profile of SmileAndNod
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ejKSksvb0

Here's what it's looking like now. Again this is rough, but I'm really liking the way it's looking for the most part. I still have lots of work to do though.
Anatole
View Profile
Inner circle
1814 Posts

Profile of Anatole
Nick, I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that "this is exactly where the fear is coming from, and is exactly why card manipulations do not look natural."
Are you suggesting that the fact that card manipulations aren't angle-proof takes away the look of naturalness?
A lot of magic--from crad manipulation to stage illusions--is not angle proof. The Aga levitation has the same problems that the multiplying billiard balls and card fan productions have.
Seen from the sides or from behind there is no magic.
Walking on two legs is not natural. It took a long time for the human genus to learn to walk confidently and naturally upright. Naturalness is an evolving process.

----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
Nick W
View Profile
Special user
515 Posts

Profile of Nick W
Anatole, my suggestion was to take card manip to the street. the reason being is that on the street you are confronted with fear, doubt and worry. you have many issues to deal with if you do. some issues you knew about and some you did not. by taking this head on you can overcome many of the obstacles card manip faces. I hope that clears it up for you:)
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22388 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
The biggest fear, is people thinking, what is that nut doing! LOL Smile
Anatole
View Profile
Inner circle
1814 Posts

Profile of Anatole
Thanks for the clarification, Nick. It sounds like you're suggesting a "sink or swim" scenario--aka taking the bull by the horns.
That approach does have its merits now and then.

----- Sonny
----- Sonny Narvaez
Nick W
View Profile
Special user
515 Posts

Profile of Nick W
Well, imho, if you take to the streets, perform and analyze yourself daily, you will learn to swim against any current. perform in just about any situation(more than most, better than most). it all depends what level you want to get to in your personal development. the manip part is just 2%. as Bill said, if you have no character to back up the moves, people will think your a nut.
gallagher
View Profile
Inner circle
1074 Posts

Profile of gallagher
Hey SmileandNod,
it's coming really good!
,..great progress.
I'm working on a manipulative routine, myself, in the moment;
I feel for you(!).

My hopes and prayers, lay in the belief,
that through rehearsing, and rehearsing,...
consciously rehearsing,..
slow,
fast,..
with music,..without;
my 'technique' will solidify
and 'naturalness' will settle in.
(my 'character' and 'logic of action' are already in my head.)
The 'naturalness', however,...
ahhh,
that's what I'm after,
as well.

I find George Lido's advice, to be very helpfull.
I agree with his logic.
George, one question though,
when do you think it's "time" to present it,
in front of an Audience?
Any thoughts?

hey SmileandNod,..
good luck,..
I thinks it really looks great.
gallagher
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22388 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, SmileAndNod wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I recognize that as Salvano's card routine from his act.


Oh man! I was really confused as to why I'd never seen someone do this before. I had never seen Salvano work before, that was fantastic. Idk why all card manipulators don't strive for that style.

Thanks for your feedback!


Why doesn't card manipulator's all strive for that style?

The answer will come to you when you try to apply it to other routines and movements. Salvano is great, I discovered him a few years ago, when his son posted on The Café.

This is hard to work into all manipulation routines, as to much of the same moves will soon draw attention. Salvano created this with the vanish and reappearance of only 5 playing cards. Taking that to a full deck, and you will soon see there is a problem to over come. Namely a reason swing the arm across the body to draw attention to the left hand. Movement needs some explanation why the move is being made.

Say you don't want to produce 5 cards singly and place them in the left hand, then what? Of course you can produce a fan in the left hand and point the right hand toward them, But with both hands full, what is your next move going to be?

Many professional manipulation experts, usually adjust the move to be made in front of the body to overcome angle issues. This technique is usually not explained in all the manipulation books and DVDs on the market. Thus it is left up to the performer to find what works for him in various situations. Most DVDs cover the basics as performed on a stage setting. It is up to the performer to work out what works for him in different performing situations.
SmileAndNod
View Profile
Veteran user
315 Posts

Profile of SmileAndNod
Quote:
On Aug 3, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, SmileAndNod wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote:
I recognize that as Salvano's card routine from his act.


Oh man! I was really confused as to why I'd never seen someone do this before. I had never seen Salvano work before, that was fantastic. Idk why all card manipulators don't strive for that style.

Thanks for your feedback!


Why doesn't card manipulator's all strive for that style?

The answer will come to you when you try to apply it to other routines and movements. Salvano is great, I discovered him a few years ago, when his son posted on The Café.

This is hard to work into all manipulation routines, as to much of the same moves will soon draw attention. Salvano created this with the vanish and reappearance of only 5 playing cards. Taking that to a full deck, and you will soon see there is a problem to over come. Namely a reason swing the arm across the body to draw attention to the left hand. Movement needs some explanation why the move is being made.

Say you don't want to produce 5 cards singly and place them in the left hand, then what? Of course you can produce a fan in the left hand and point the right hand toward them, But with both hands full, what is your next move going to be?

Many professional manipulation experts, usually adjust the move to be made in front of the body to overcome angle issues. This technique is usually not explained in all the manipulation books and DVDs on the market. Thus it is left up to the performer to find what works for him in various situations. Most DVDs cover the basics as performed on a stage setting. It is up to the performer to work out what works for him in different performing situations.


Did you look at the second video I posted?
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22388 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
No I did not, as you did not indicate anything would be different, except improved.
SmileAndNod
View Profile
Veteran user
315 Posts

Profile of SmileAndNod
It's a continuous production routine. Maybe take a look?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Striving to make manipulation feel more natural (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.16 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL