This is meant for the more perceptive and open minded members on this BB. It may irritate some but let me explain how it is in the real world of "getting the money" because there is so much nonsense being bandied around in this regard it is almost hilarious.

Most every card table hobbyist/enthusiast who learns gambling moves/ploys does so for his or her own amusement, for mastery of certain moves or to present gambling demonstrations or card tricks either at the amateur or professional level. Almost all of these people, including most on this BB, have learned most of what they know from DVDs, books on the subject and talking to others of the same persuasion. Almost none have any direct experience of professional hustling so they process everything from a theoretical point of view as to what they think works or doesn't work under fire and how it would be applied. To most it seems like the efficacy of a ploy and its viability is mostly dependent upon how good it looks on video. If performed well and deceptively, it will get the money. If not, it won't.

However, that is completely fallacious.

There is some very nice work being shown on video and it sometimes can be very impressive. But here is the rub so to speak. A beautiful and deceptive move, not matter how adroitly it is presented, has very little to do with getting the money. I know that statement makes almost no sense to most on this BB, but let me elaborate.

People who demonstrate these moves are mostly doing a performance; much like any magician would be performing color changing silks, linking rings, cups and balls and the like. It is a performance, plain and simple, under ideal and limited conditions and nothing more.

No matter how pretty and deceptive a move might look on video that does not mean it is workable or practical in and of itself under fire. In other words, watching a move done deceptively and cleanly might lead one to conclude that it will get the money. The reason someone would come to that conclusion is they have never been there and don't really know what one has to actually do to get the money. In other words, their observation is logical but based upon limited understanding of what is really involved to make it work.

For example, let's say someone demonstrates a beautiful and deceptive second deal on video or in person. Most enthusiasts would say that would get the money and fly under fire. However, I suggest that would not be correct because the real question is, "HOW do you get the money with that beautiful second deal?"

At this point, the performer might say, "Well, it is self-evident. I would use marked cards, peek at the top card or use it in conjunction with stacking."

Okay, let's take marked cards. The questions now are, "How would you get your cards into play? Would you switch in the deck, would you work up the cards during play, what type of work would you use, what cards would be hit and how would you use your second deal in conjunction with these marked cards" and so on? Now the efficacy of using this beautiful second deal demo that would automatically get the money starts to expand, becomes more problematic and perhaps not feasible at all.

The response if any may be, "Well, I would switch in the deck or work the cards up during play."

The next question might be, "Okay, how would you switch in a deck or work up the cards during play?"

The performer may or may not have an answer to that but in any event to make the second deal workable he has to be able to do one or the other effectively and deceptively under fire. Then he would have to demonstrate doing so with the right combination of cards "hit" so one could evaluate if what the states is realistic. There is a good chance he cannot.

Another question might be, "Could you deal these cards to yourself when you have real players sitting shoulder to shoulder with you on your right and left and looking down at the top of the deck and where you might get your head busted if they catch you cheating?" I could go on and on and on with this?

So I'm sure the more perceptive members can see how involved this is starting to get in the real world. I could write a book on this but obviously can't on this BB but it applies to ALL DEMOS. The point is, can you see that this beautiful second deal, which at first blush most would think would get the money, in and of itself is pretty useless and would NOT get the money because to be effective other very important and relevant elements must be involved and incorporated and the performer may not be able to put all these factors together.

So whether one is peeking, stacking the cards or using work to get the desired cards using just a simple second deal, so much more is involved to get the money, some of which might not be feasible to incorporate. So in the final analysis, a demo of a beautiful move will NOT get the money as such so the initial perception that it would, in and of itself, is erroneous.

Keep in mind, a demo is really is a PERFORMANCE of a manipulation and little more, just like the performance of any other type manipulation and the person demoing it is a performer or magician or demonstrator or whatever you want to call him but one cannot imply he is a professional card hustler showing what he does to get the money because currently active real pros don't do video demos of the moves or ploys they use - period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is very naive or has an agenda.


Of course, there is nothing wrong with demos. They can be informative, entertaining, beneficial and fun to watch. Just be aware that just because someone can perform some skillful demonstrations, don't automatically think that he can automatically get the money using those moves...because...

There is a good chance he cannot!!!

I'll get the money with the monte, ten card deal and the Penney Paradox.

Screw false dealing and stacking.

Funny. Whatever works is what works. LOL

Interesting perspective. I would tend to think that there is a sort of mythic quality assigned to "the real work" when in my experience of associating with people who regularly play for advantage "the real work" is usually everything but the moves: finding the right games, finding the weakness at that particular table, and usually finding the right compatriots to work the game. IN my experience with games that aren't taking place in a card room or casino, one can mostly do well just by being a good poker player who knows how to calculate pot odds correctly and most would be gambling experts would be better off reading david sklansky and Herbert yardley before even thinking about steve forte or erdnase.

@jfquackenbush:

Nice observation. I agree completely.

Great post Cag!

This is the kind of post that is making this place slowly dying. Of course you need to know what to do with your seconds, bottoms, hold-outs, and so on. Isn'it obvious? Do you think we never thought of that? Don't you think that Doc is a real working guy and demonstrated here great demos? Same with Mr Z? This is plainly stupid.
But I understand it is in the same time very convenient because you never demonstrated nothing.
The problem is that some guys here seem to agree with this post.
Anyway...

@JJ
I say this very respectfully: you missed the point of Cag's post.
No actual cheater, advantage player or sharp would identify themselves and demo their methods.
To demonstrate your ability especially on the Internet for all to see would be suicide, both financially ( see the Sic Bo post) or physically.
There is a schism between magic demos and real gambling. They are two different beasts.
That confuses many as this is actually a MAGIC site, but we have a gambling sub forum.
I think that it is great that some endeavor to be great cardmen and display what they can do with a deck, I really do appreciate the skill and dedication to practice that involves.
That being said. As far as real gambling goes - that is the 5% of the iceberg above the water, or it may actually be no part of the iceberg at all.
You cannot post a demo on cross checking, collusion, or really any real advantage play. Therefore it passes by and is not of interest to magicians.
Basically, many that come here are in search of ways to make themselves LOOK like real gamblers and card cheats with displayable techniques, that will win accolades from their magic peers whom they subsequently show via posting videos etc.
Everyone is free to use this site for whatever reason suites them.
But what I believe Cag is trying to convey is that one should kid themselves or be kidded into thinking that finger flinging with a deck in isolation from a real game will make you a viable card cheat or gambler.
See jfquakenbush's post above for a good take on the matter as well.
99% of those using this forum will fall way short there before they even consider advantage play.
Again I am saying this objectively, not mentioning names etc.
Just calling a spade a spade so to speak.
Be well.

M I understand you perfectly. I am not totally naïve, or stupid.
But you just killed these 5% of iceberg.
Period.

Never said you were anything of the sort.
And I'm not sure how my post "killed" anything.
But, anyhow...
Be well and all the best.

Actually it was designed to bring the discussion to a higher level and liven up the place. As I said before, my posts are designed for a few, not the masses i.e., for those that want to discuss things beyond the common everyday concepts that are bandied about ad nauseam.



In theory it would seem so, but the point of the post was just looking at the move itself in a vacuum you cannot make the assumption that the "performer" can get the money with that move without incorporating and SHOWING the other elements as being part of the move, which is virtually NEVER done. To assume, as in my post, that "Oh yes, I would work up the deck or put in a marked cards" being assumptive is not enough. Can the performer actually do that? In almost all cases, he cannot which is why it is not shown.

In other words, a move in isolation is interesting and nice to watch, but without all the elements being shown, one cannot say in and of itself it will get the money. All you can say is it looks good, or it is deceptive or whatever.



Well, that is what he claimed and some of the moves he did were skillfully "performed." But he had a Facebook page with his picture on it of himself claiming he was a card cheat. Duhhh. Yup, that is what all the pros do.

He also hung around magicians and frequented "magic" spots in the NY City area and demoed his moves to all, many on video. Yup, all pros do that and expose themselves and who they are, don't they?

He also lives in one of the most populated and active areas of the US, New York City with big casino and professional card room games in proximity yet he claimed he never went into those areas. The pros I know who operate in the big games don't know who he is and don't work with him. There are many big games back there, both casino and professional card room games, yet he said he didn't play in those games but instead only in neighborhood "street games." Please...



Mr. Z is a craps dealer last I heard and never moved in a game in his life from what I know nor would he want to. Skillful young fellow, but he is not a pro.



You are a magician and you look at things from a magician's point of view, which is fine, but if you were not a magician and if you were "capable" of getting the money in big games and actually did so, you would not make a statement like that. If you ever worked any big games, you would not even consider doing demos or using your real name on a BB.



That is not a problem; it is a big plus because it says there are some on this BB that are astute enough to discuss the matter to some degree and take the BB to a different level and beyond the commonplace.

As I said, my posts are designed for a few and evidently interesting or challenging enough for you to make actually make a post yourself.

It seems to me, one reason for showing something to somebody is to get feedback, constructive critique, tips and the like. While such critique is often helpful to those showing the thing and to others listening to the given advice in the process, it isn’t something a professional card player ought to do. If one is a professional card player, then it’s best to take the advice of my old friend Mr Erdnase and get yourself a mirror and do as you please. A magician neither should ever reveal his secrets to the public. As to how to view anything, it seems to me, take them not to be all the same but take each one as an individual and act accordingly.

Hi,

My 2 cents : selecting the right game at the right time....

If I'm not at the top of my abilities tonight, I ain't going to a tight game where I'll surely get killed if I make a mistake and before I make a centavo !

Also, I'd rather play 3 "small" games than 1 big. There's a great chance they'll be easier to break and people will be paying less attention !! I know it's not glamorous...

Vargas

I'm sorry JJ, but I have to say you are completely wrong with this statement.
In fact, the exact opposite of what you've written is the case.
If more agreed with Cag's post, then we could get into more meaningful discussions than critiquing bottom deal videos.
Again, the Sic Bo post is a great example of fertile topic matter.
Each to his own though.

Looks like JJSanvert made a cameo appearance on the BB, posted a few negative remarks and criticisms as to why he "never" posts, and then when his criticisms and remarks were rationally and intelligently addressed as part of an ongoing conversation, he responded no further, abruptly left the BB again and headed back to his lair.

Hmmmmm...

Very strange...

I recall years ago when the Cardshark BB was active and I posted there as Rasputin, we had some perceptive and in depth conversations that were beneficial with good participation. Maybe times have changed, or perhaps the people on this BB (with a few exceptions) are looking for different things. Possibly the fact that there was a small membership fee attached to post on that BB made a difference or maybe because there were less people (or no people), looking for "moves" or looking to be entertained with demos but mostly serious people posting about interesting subjects. Nothing wrong with looking for moves or liking to watch demos, but discussions beyond that require a different mindset.

It is like my discussion above with AMcD. When I asked him a couple of times if he could get the money in a game, his repeated response was he could do "moves" in "any" game (thereby completely avoiding the question), since doing moves has little to do with getting the money. They are good for doing demos though and are entertaining to watch.

Don't recall anyone doing demo videos on the Cardshark BB but I could be mistaken.

Correction to my above post. My conversation with AMcD that I mentioned regarding my questions as to him being being able to get the money as opposed to just doing moves was part of the Sic Bo thread. Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=188

There is not much to talk about really the same topics come up over and over again and people parrot and parrot away as if we ain’t heard and seen it all before.

Cag, you should stop with AMcD. He left because your constant insults, bashing and bad comments. The place is yours now

@popcalinda: I was trying to make a point and used AMcD because I was referring to our discussion together. He can respond anytime he wants as I am sure he still reads all the posts here.

Have you ever made a video of gambling moves Cag?