Hey guys,

sorry in advanced if there's another topic on this already. but I just had a quick question to those out there using real silver as opposed to clad coins. since I've gotten into coin magic, I've just been using regular clad kennedy's. they still work well and get the job done. but lately I've been thinking about investing into some real silver ie. walking liberties, morgans eventually. the coins themselves are fairly inexpensive if you know where to look. but the gaffs (shells, flippers ect.) I noticed are quite pricey. I own a shell and flipper already, but they are super basic and were pretty cheap. as I said, they get the job done. but can anyone attest to how much better an all silver set (gaffs and coins) is compared to a basic set like mine? I do a lot of coin magic, but to get the set I want is roughly $250 give or take...a bit of an investment. anyway, can anyone give me some insight and share some thoughts on this subject?

thanks,

Jameson

Switching to silver coins will do very little to improve your magic outright.
The biggest difference is aesthetic -- appearance and sound. If there's an aesthetic feature of a certain coin or coins that help you with your story or some other aspect of your performance, then that could be a plus. The sound of silver coins clanking against each other is distinctly different from clad coins. I prefer it.
My favorite design is the Walking Liberty half, followed by Morgan silver dollars. Personally I'm not fond of Franklin halves or the Peace dollar design. Barber coins (quarters, halves, dollars) all use the same design so could have applications for coins growing/shrinking. Barber halves are also thinner than Walkers/Franklins/Kennedys - five of them stack about as high as four of the others, which could be useful in some routines but probably makes gaffing them more difficult. Compared to clad coins, I prefer the look of either a highly polished silver coin (better shine/lustre), or a well worn one with the tarnish/dirt in the recesses providing a nice contrast and enhancing details in the coins.

Mechanically, the difference between silver and clad gaffs depend more on the maker than the coins' composition, but even there, you're talking about enhanced tolerances that in most cases should never be noticed by your audience -- one exception being anything that requires you to display a shelled coin "mouth up".

One interesting "mechanical" difference I've noticed between silver and clad is that clad coins tend to be more slippery. From that perspective, silver may be beneficial, but if you're already doing well with clad -- as many many people do -- there's no real need to switch.

It used to be that clad coins were the more common "pocket change" that people had on them. Items you could borrow and then switch in your gaffs. Other than quarters, that's not the case anymore -- if anyone even has change on them. A lot of people today are likely to never have seen or handled a clad Kennedy half or Eisenhower dollar, so there's no difference if you pull some of those out vs older silver coins in terms of familiarity / "ordinary" objects.

What set are you looking at for $250? That price can be low/high depending on what it includes and who's making it.

Inigmntoya, as always, speaks good sensible advice. One slight correction though is that Barber coins come in dimes, quarters and halves, there is no Barber dollar.

Ini, speaks about the truth here as to things, as he usually does. It's basically a preference. Silver is nice though to handle, but as stated, "clad coins get the job done too." Not sure what $250 buys you in gaffed silver coins, but it's still just a choice. And again, silver coins probably won't make you do what you do any better, but you might feel better about it since you have some desire for them, so perhaps it's more psychological than anything else.

I have both silver and clad coins, and use them interchangeably…Probably use clad stuff more on daily basis. Can't say I handle one better than the other, but I do appreciate the real feel of silver. But spectators rarely if ever care what you use, as they focus mostly (the best they can), on the magic you do with the coins, not what they are made of or perhaps how pretty you think they are. So, in a way, it's more about what "you're" made of (in using the coins), than what the coins are made of (as used by you)…Or something like that.

Thank you for the insight. I know that upgrading to silver will be doing little to really improve my magic. I admit I was aiming partially to improve the aesthetics. say for 3 fly for instance, older WL coins look much better and more visible in a fan than polished clad kennedys. I do quite a few coins across routines that do require coins to rub together a bit when shuttling coins, I thought using silver would help that a bit too. I do also like the contrast of an aged WL on the skin in general.

the set I was looking to purchase was not necessarily a "set", I was going to purchase a WL gravity flipper pro and a WL shell w/ one matching insert from mr. roy kueppers. I know a lot of people out there highly recommend lassen or schoolcraft coins, but they are just a bit too much for my budget (as beautiful as they are). I've heard good things about kueppers work and it seems he has pretty reasonable prices. the other WL coins I'll be getting from a coin dealer I found online ( bgasc.com for anyone curious). I'm sure having a fully matching set might be a good idea which I was considering, but wasn't sure if it was worth dishing out the extra cash. which was another thing I was a bit curious about. though other than a shadow coins routine, and one or two other routines require me to unest a shell and nest it on another. though those routines are some of the strongest I perform. maybe I'mthinking about things a bit much? I don't know :/ but I do know love coin magic! haha

Silver is most definitely better. The sound is clinky instead of clunky. They look better. They feel better. They have better grip. They are more interesting to talk about regarding composition and history. Yes, silver is better than clad.

If you had to choose between someone dressed sharp, speaking clearly, and had charismatic qualities OR someone who was dull, clunky, and uninteresting who would you pick? Would you rather ride in a Limo or a bus? Are engraved sterling silver Sherwood cups better than a plain aluminum set? F'YA and on SO many levels. Do they cost thousands more? F'YA. Is it worth it?

F'YA.

The best part of switching to silver after using clad for a long time is the appreciation you're going have for the change. You "do a lot of coin magic" so I'm guessing your familiar with David Roth's trick in Expert Coin Magic on page 62. Would you like to feel and hear the difference between clad and silver? Do THAT trick. BUT! Do it the way he LECTURES it NOW. NOT the way its written in the book. If you've been using clad for a long time you WILL notice the 3% difference AND you'll love it.



Here's a poll for the pro's out there that sometimes post here:

Do you prefer to use SILVER or CLAD? No explanation needed as I'm sure everyone will have different reasoning and that's not in question. It is a simple question: Silver or CLAD?


~Craig

For $250 you can get a Schoolcraft OxF set which includes an expanded shell and gravity flipper:

http://coingaffs.com/collections/oxf-variations

The flipper is magnetic and the shell shimmed for even more options.
You can probably order a similar set from Lassen (his "OtisFX") for about the same.
Being an expanded shell, you shouldn't need a specific matching insert, but I've found that due to wear, WL coins can vary a fair bit in diameter. The expanded shell from my Schoolcraft 3CF only fits more worn coins. I went to a local coin shop and had no problem finding matches going through their "cull" coins.

Something else to consider is Mark Mason/Bob Swadling's Next Generation flipper -- $125 for one in WL, which should leave enough for a WL expanded shell from any number of makers.

An expanded WL shell in heads or tails (your choice) is only $75 from Mason bringing total to $200 (got a tails from him a few months back, excellent fit on all my walkers)
http://www.jbtvusa.com/j-b-pro-coin-line......-334.php

@Craig - Silver Walkers <--- me pretending to be a pro

M

with the magnetic flipper, wouldn't you have to have the shimmed shell nested onto the flipper to make it open? I would think being magnetic it would limit certain things you can do, no?

thanks again for the sources guys, I wouldn't have noticed my options otherwise. ill look into the next generation flipper, sounds interesting. that shell from mason too looks nice, and $75?? to think I was ready to spend $100 plus+ for the same thing! ive heard good things about johnson shells too which I was considering as well. good point about the inserts as well. the only reason I was considering a matching insert is because I heard WLs can vary in diameter. but seeing as how bgasc.com has them for sale so cheap, why bother right? the coins I'm getting are all circulated anyway, since I'm looking to get 5-8 coins, I'm sure at least a few will fit nicely.

so I'm now in between that mason shell for $75, a johnson shell which is roughly the same if I'm not mistaken. I'm not so worried! about the shell though as I am the flipper. I do like the idea of the pro gravity flipper or something similar where there is no visible groove around the insert. I may browse around a bit more for the flipper. or try to find a set with a pro gravity flipper WITH the shell like that schoolcraft set. I'm just not too sure about being magnetic as I'm not too familiar with the mechanics of magnetic flippers besides the double deception deluxe gimmick from mason (quarter set) that I own.

i knew I would eventually be getting some WL coins shortly after I got into coin magic, and I feel like I'm a bit overdue. especially now considering I'm preparing for my first real paid gig. funny thing is eric jones' oxy clean/flash coins is what originally inspired me to upgrade my gaffs. anyone familiar with that routine, would know that making that second coin appear with anything except a silver flipper and shell just sounds horrendous. soon as I learned that routine, that's when it hit me... "these just won't cut it"

No. That would be a magnetic locking flipper + magnetic coin. The OxF set is designed so you can toss the shelled flipper w/out the shell flying off, yet you can still easily remove the shell as you would a normal one. They can also separately, or as a pair be used with a magnetic holdout.



Can't go wrong with Johnson. The NGF is nice, but one drawback I forgot to mention -- if they haven't updated the design -- is it's not an "internal band" meaning that when open you don't have a "real edge" on the insert piece.



Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on where they got their current inventory from... could be all relatively unworn stock. Your best bet for fit is a local coin shop if you have one. Just ask to see their "cull" WL coins, and (gently) try them on for size.



Ah... yes... double deception is the "locking" type that needs the other magnetic coin to (easily) open the flipper. No worries with the OxF -- see below.



The OxF set was DESIGNED for the Oxyclean routine. See: http://coingaffs.com/products/oxf-walkin......f-dollar
If you want to do that routine, don't hesitate to get the OxF set. That said, I'm not sure what you mean about "sounds horrendous". Are you talking about the sound the coins make when the 2nd coin appears? You don't get a true "ring" from silver either because the shell is still a shell and not a solid coin.

Hey sorry for the delayed response, my router at home has been messed up, had no internet the past couple days.


so from what I gather with the oxf set, the magnetic flipper acts as a regular gravity flipper, the difference being when paired with the shimmed shell, it makes it so the shell will "stick" to the flipper when being tossed around, but can be easily removed with some gentle pressure? and yes originally the idea I had was that it was locking like the double deception gimmick. knowing the oxy clean routine, with the original idea I had, it confused me. I thought maybe eric jones had some kind of new handling of the routine with this set. but now it makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I knew the oxf set was named after the oxy clean routine, like Isaid I was just confused about the mechanics of how the set worked.

do you know if the schoolcraft oxf set uses a real edge on the flipper? if so then I may be sold on getting that. I'm just hoping that when I get my regular coins, they fit the shell. otherwise I may just go with my original plan and get a shell from where ever, and go for some kind of gravity flipper that has a real edge. I definitely would want my flipper to have a real edge. though I know that usually the spectator will usually be looking at it head on, as opposed to from the side, id like to avoid any discrepancy, no matter how small. plus I plan on performing the "impossible coins across" routine. if your familiar with that, then you would know why having a real edge is beneficial.

the horrible sound I was talking about was making the 2nd coin appear during the oxy clean routine with my CURRENT set. since I have a really cheap flipper and shell, when they hit against each other they sound very plasticy. I know that even with silver gaffs, when a shell hits against something, it doesn't sound like a solid coin, it has a "tinny" ring to it. but it at least sounds metallic with silver, with mine they make a very obvious non-metallic sounds. I don't even perform that routine anywhere that doesn't have fairly loud ambient noise. that's one of the reasons I was looking to upgrade as well. cheap gaffs may look decent, but they sound horrible.

Yes, the OxF has an internal band, so it shows a "real edge".

Sound, is not the problem in most cases, because magicians tend to eliminate sound of coins clinking in the hands. This is where the magician has to find what works for them. Some control the coins so they do not contact, and some control the coins by adding pressure as the coins are placed together. As all gimmicked coins do not sound natural. Waiting for loud noises to happen is letting the lack of working out a good handling over take the performance of a good magic trick being presented.

Really, I don't think you need any kind of excuse to justify buying way overpriced gimmicked coins. If you have the money, then spend it on what you want, but at least work on eliminating the sound of coins hitting against each other. It will pay off in the end, and you will become a better magician with coins.

They all say that soft coins is the coins to use. That means coins that are so worn down that you can hardly recognize the design on them. So you coins will not look better then what you have, they will most likely look worse. Along with wearing down the coins, the edges are also worn down. So wanting a well worn coin with new knurled edges is kind of a mix mash of desires.

As stated previously, these all silver coins will do nothing for your ability to handle them or your performance ability. We all want a Faerie but want the price of an economy car.

I may look into getting the schoolcraft set then, thanks for all the advice ini, you've been a great help.

yes bill I am aware that no matter what coins you use, it does not make your magic any better. as I said before, it was more of the aesthetics of having a set of nice walking liberty coins that appealed to me. they do look and sound a bit nicer than regular clad kennedy half dollars. older worn coins tend to contrast a bit better against the skin as they are usually darker. on the other hand when I either fan my regular kennedy set or just having them spread in my hands, they tend to "blend" in with each other (ie 3 fly, coins across). this is why I wanted to upgrade to silver coins, for the aesthetics. not because I believed these coins would make my magic any better. but if I am to do so, why not have the gaffs to match? I just got a $300 bonus from work and I'm working on all my routines for my first gig. I figure I would just want to look professional as possible, and I think my props should look professional as well. they are quite expensive, and I do have options to save a few bucks. but this is all why I posted this, to get some feedback on people who have silver coin set and to tell me what they think. to see if its worth the investment in their opinion, what differences have they noticed, ect.

as far as the actual handling of my routines, I have played around with every routine that "talking" may be an issue, and have adjusted accordingly. I've been doing that since day one. same with the oxy clean routine and making that second coin appear. I've had to either make it so there is minimal contact, or none at all. all these routines I learned online where the magician says " I would recommend soft coins for this", I have had to adjust the handling, and have been doing this since day one. but yes I believe this has made me a better magician, I think after all this time I've invested into learning coin magic, I should invest a bit myself and get a professional set. I don't really care about the coins being soft or having remilled edges. they may have their benefits, but I don't see the need in going that far. I would like to recognize the markings on my coins, that's partially why they appealed to me in the first place.

but I am most definitely aware that props do not make the magician... practice does.

"They all say that soft coins is the coins to use. That means coins that are so worn down that you can hardly recognize the design on them" - not quite; a soft coin is one who's rim is worn such that when passed over a simialarly worn coin wil not cause noise, a scrapping noise. It just slide smoothly. A soft coin can have a substantial amount of detail.

My personal opinion is that I strongly prefer Silver to Clad. I use polished Morgans for size and visibility, shine, and sound. I however do not like using gaffed coins. I prefer putting in the practice to accomplish effects with pure sleight of hand. Shells and such are expensive as well as an "easy way out." If you just want to do some quick tricks, then I think it's great for you but I personally like the idea of putting in the practice.

I'm not saying you can't do real miracles with shells and other gaffs, you can... But I think those sorts of things are often geared more towards the thoughts of magicians and aren't exactly necessary. If I had the money to toss aside, I'd love a set of Lassen gaffs but I just don't think spending so much money on that sort of thing is really worth it when you aren't exactly made of money.

Thanks for the input zeph. I already ordered my walking liberties, they are on their way and should arrive next week. I'm definitely convinced that silver is worth investing in. clad coins get the job done, in my opinion they are actually the best thing to start out with and I'm glad I did. since newer clad coins talk a lot, you are forced to learn to manage the noise and find ways around it. I've been using them for a while now and I think once I get my silver set, I will appreciate them more as opposed to if I would have just started out with them.

I agree with you on the morgans, I intend to get a set of morgans as well eventually. however they are twice as expensive as WLs or even barber halves. so it will take a bit of time for those. not to mention the gaffs are a lot more expensive for dollar size coins. but I would love a set of dollar size coins, they are much more visible so they definitely make certain routines look better and more visual (like 3fly). a retention pass in general looks a lot better than half dollars as there is more surface to look at so you get a better burn. so far I have been working almost exclusively with half dollars, so I'm a lot more used to those. I only have two eisenhower dollars which I rarely use. but I will definitely get a set of morgans eventually.

I agree with you about the gaffs as well, to an extent. for quite a while I was strictly a purist and I was not necessarily against gaffs but I definitely did not like using them and tried to avoid it if possible. I thought this way UNTIL I learned kainoa harbottle's misbehavin routine. if you are not familiar with the routine, I would highly recommend looking into it. its a beautiful "four coin" routine where the coins appear and vanish throughout the routine in a very magical way. he says it's his go-to routine and justifiably so. after learning it, it quickly became on of my favorite routines. anyway he teaches a gaffed and ungaffed version. I did not own a shell at the time so I just learned the ungaffed version. both routines are very similar, however you can see that the gaffed routine is not only cleaner, but easier to perform. the magical moments are much more punctuated as well when using the shell. now I'm a move monkey.. I love learning all the tricky, knacky and challenging moves/routines. but I quickly realized how handy it is to use gaffed coins. simply put, they can not only make a routine a lot cleaner, but there are things that you can do with gaffs that just cannot be accomplished with sleight of hand alone. kainoa also made a great point which sold me on using gaffed coins. he said something along the lines of... would you rather make the moments of magic as strong (and clean) as possible for your audience but be using a gaff? or would you the magician rather feel better that you are using real coins and pure sleight of hand to accomplish something? in the end, we are all presenting our magic to and FOR our audience. they do not care how difficult a sleight/routine was, and how skilled you must be to pull it off. they just want to see the magic happen. so in my opinion, I think we owe it to our spectators to make that moment of magic as strong as possible, no matter how it is accomplished.

as far as spending the money, well.. of course I'm not made of money, so for me, a schoolcraft set is a bit of an investment. any regular shell and flipper could get the job done.. but to make a one time investment for the finest quality gaffs that will last me possibly a lifetime of performing, and that will hold up to any scrutiny, I'm willing to take the plunge. it may hurt a bit financially, but I think knowing that I now have one of the finest gaffs money can buy, in my opinion is all the justification I need.

one more thing on the sleight of hand vs gaff debate (which everyone has their own opinion on), I think one of the biggest reasons people don't like using gaffs, is because subconsciously we feel like we are cheating. we feel better about ourselves and about our skill if we do something with pure sleight of hand. likewise, we in some way feel like we are not as good of a magician if we "need the help of gaffs/gimmicks" to accomplish an effect. this was my thinking at least for a while. but my view has changed to looking at gaffs as a utility device more than anything. I now aim for, as I said before, making my magic look as strong, clean and impossible as possible. in order to do that, SOMETIMES, that requires the use of a gaff. the USE, not the HELP. I do prefer using sleight of hand whenever possible, I do not rely on gaffs at all. I feel like the best magic a lot of times comes from using the sleights and gaffs in junction. I feel that this is how gaffs are meant to be used.

You'll enjoy your new set of coins. As you see here, people have many different opinions as to this, and no one is any righter than anyone else, no matter how sure-handedly they say it. It's really left up to you, and for real, those gaffed coins are like jewels, trinkets to the eye…Very hard to resist, and often times no matter the cost.

The stuff you're getting is fun, and gaff coins can be as helpful as lipstick and makeup can be to an already pretty woman, or something like that. That is to say that they can be very helpful and make more attainable an even more magical sort of magic. It's probably best to be proficient using both modes. Nothing beats good SOH in IMHO, but sometimes ringing in a gaff can be like seasoning up an already good piece of meat.

I have seen David Roth, Eric Jones, Michael Ammar, etc, all good SOH guys, also as gracefully use gaffs to create further marvels and mystery…It don't get much better than that. And there are many wonderful others out there that use a little extra in their work that are quite extraordinary. But good SOH is the core work. Without it, you're most times just following general instructions to just about anybody on what to do with the coins, like Scotch & Soda or even Nickels to Dimes.

In the end, it don't much matter to the specs as they don't know what you're using and don't care. Thank God!

As to the feel of real silver vs clad, well, it's all been said here to & fro. All this mostly will fall beneath the great desire you have to get your hands on those silver gaffs. No amount of Yea or Nay can stop such burning desire once it has been lit. So, have at it and have fun…Truly, it's all good and part of the journey.

Oh, and much respect to everyone that has chimed in here.

Thank you for your post as allways mb. Your a great man.
Thany you for being here. As we as everyone else.
Cheers