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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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My bread and butter--AGAINST MY WILL--is giving grades. Day in and day out, I have to judge people and give them marks for how they perform. I hate it, hate it, hate it. Imgic, like any job, there's the good and the bad. You weigh the trade-offs.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Jul 23, 2015, landmark wrote: Your opinion is noted. Too bad all of my text books disagree. Self appraisal must be measured against a consistent standard, and incremental learning based on a reward system is motivational. We have al agreed that the grading system often used are flawed in many ways. This does not mean the concept is wrong. A grade on successive assignments allows each student to balance the goal desired and the work required to get it. With no measurement of success against a standard there is no incentive to change behaviors. And pre-tests have been proven to be very motivational to both student and teacher. Telling a student they will all get the same grade regardless of how hard they work would be de-motivation if not stultifying. A student has the right to decide for themselves whether do "just get by," "do all the expected work in exemplary fashion and get a "B," or demonstrate exceptional knowledge and ability to apply the information to get an "A." I agree with your brother in choosing a "B" as the acceptable goal for most students, juts decry the denial of choice for the student. Glad you accepted my definition over your original one though. Well, the text book definition anyway.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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Your opinion is noted. Too bad all of my text books disagree. I'm sorry for the poor quality of the textbooks you seem to own. You can look up the literature on extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation. There's decades and decades of it. Quote:
Self appraisal must be measured against a consistent standard, and incremental learning based on a reward system is motivational. The consistent standard is the teacher's considered feedback. Very different from a grade. Quote:
We have al agreed that the grading system often used are flawed in many ways. This does not mean the concept is wrong. You have suggested no way to fix it. The burden is now on you if you wish to continue to maintain that the concept is not wrong. Quote:
A grade on successive assignments allows each student to balance the goal desired and the work required to get it. With no measurement of success against a standard there is no incentive to change behaviors. There's a huge difference between accurate feedback from an expert, and a semester grade. There's a huge difference between a formative pre-test exam--used as feedback and not something to sort students with--and an assigned grade. Your tennis coach doesn't end your set of lessons by giving you a grade. And if you had one who said, hey you're worth a D, you probably wouldn't pick up a racket again. For most, that would be de-motivating. Quote:
Telling a student they will all get the same grade regardless of how hard they work would be de-motivation if not stultifying. Ken, I was never graded on magic, parenting, playing ball, eating, breathing, walking, and yet I'm curiously motivated to do all of that. Do you think I'm unusual that way? Quote:
A student has the right to decide for themselves whether do "just get by," "do all the expected work in exemplary fashion and get a "B," or demonstrate exceptional knowledge and ability to apply the information to get an "A." In your world, evidently, students are not able to make those same kinds of decisions without having a grade in front of them. So much for self-motivation. Students can get the approval of their teachers when they are headed in the right direction without being graded. Quote: ? This is just a bizarre comment to me. My goals for students have zilch to do with a letter or number on their transcript.
I agree with your brother in choosing a "B" as the acceptable goal for most students, juts decry the denial of choice for the student. Quote:
Glad you accepted my definition over your original one though. Well, the text book definition anyway. I'm assuming you're referring to my statement, "The purpose of education is to help each student achieve the most that they can with what they have." I see nothing there that contradicts what you wrote as your definition. Education is a big topic. It encompasses more than a few words and perspectives. Not sure what you found objectionable in my definition, but I'm fine either way.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
It is interesting to watch you dodge and weave across a field filled with obstacles of your own making and towards a goal shifting in your imagination.
I am sure the readers here have read enough to make some decisions on their own. "education being a big topic." What I find "objectionable" is your making universal statements as an expansion of personal opinion, and you apparent need to attack anything that questions your premises or reasoning. The value of discourse is to allow the learner (all of us) to appraise our opinions and values from a new perspectives. This is not "argument" with a need to defend your castle. A different point of view is certainly not justification for you to rephrase a statement and then attack your own fabrication. I now believe you have no "ball to carry" but just like to litter the playing field with refuse. The only new issue is your introduction of the idea of an "assigned grade" that you seem to find distasteful. Yet that is exactly what your brother proposed. Grades are not "assigned" nor ideally based on the actions of others. They are best earned by the achievement of certain levels of performance. I feel that for any teacher to "assign" a grade is wrong. This includes curves, special graders for athletes, "passing kids through," giving everyone the same score regardless of achievement, modifying the result by external standards such as in the OP, prejudice on the part of a teacher and political pressure from parents and community. but, I also acknowledge that we live in an imperfect world, and that all of examples occur regularly. Students are "sorted out" by grades and many other artificial standards. Most people today do not wish to get the grade or result they deserve. They do not wish to have an opportunity to achieve more, they desire a trophy just for showing up. I sympathize with the several professors offered as examples in this thread. They seem to "know" that the grade received has little to do with preparing the student for what life holds by way of "real scoring." So, they throw up their hands in an attempt to say, "It makes no difference what grade you get." This may be a sad reality, but doesn't help with the core problems of entitlement and false promises in our culture. If even one student is de-motivated or harmed by these actions by a teacher it is wrong. The key is being able to choose and me measured uniformly by those choices -- accountability. I have no illusion that this is going to occur in a society where wants trump needs (no pun intended) I went back to school at 60 to get a Masters in Education Technology to see if a solution was possible though restructuring of course design and integration of multi-media support. What I discovered is that our (USA) formal educational system is more flawed than I ever imagined. It deserves at best a "D" when compared to what is possible and a "B-" when compared to systems in some other countries. But, I am not in charge of assigning grades. I can choose to not play that game -- and leave this playing field to you and whatever game you enjoy. (PS -- I would score your website higher than what you offer here)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Ken, I agree with you that now both of our views have been well-aired, and those interested can reach their own conclusions as to the merits of what's been written here.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
I'm enjoying it Ken and Jack. You're talking about different things, giving the topic some fairly good coverage
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
I'd ask for six.
You come in with nothing--you go out with nothing. What do you lose? NOTHING!
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I think much depends on how you view the question.
1. Is the question for me? 2. Is the question for the whole class? Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Jul 24, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: Confused. In all of the past teacher debates here just about all of the teachers profess to be teachers because you love the profession and want to make the world a better place. Have things changed?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
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On Jul 19, 2015, S2000magician wrote: 'Thought you all' Ftfy. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, magicfish wrote: RTFM*, you mean. *Ruint that for you. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, acesover wrote: We were all being disingenuous. The truth is that we're really in it for the money. That and the joy of belonging to unions and having the opportunity to stick it to the MAN. Unfortunately, only the lottery will give me the kind of money I REALLY need to live the kind of lifestyle I deserve. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I most enjoyed discovering the secret discipline process as opposed to the officially published one -- both of which varied from school to school.
If kids spent as much time studying as learning how to cheat the system ... My idea of "a better place" doesn't seem to meet the expectations of students -- something to do with the concepts of "work" and "gimmee."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Aces wrote:
Quote:
Have things changed? I can't speak for Stone, but here, and in a lot of the US, yes. The constant teacher bashing, and interference from people who know nothing about education has taken a particularly bad turn in the last decade or so. It's not the dealing with students that is difficult--students are students, that's our job, our challenge--but the second guessing, union bashing, and overall disrespect from adults that is distressing and demoralizing. Of course, it's now starting to backfire; in Arizona, after years of rising class sizes, union bashing, wage cuts, de-funding of public schools in order to give money away to their charter school cronies, they can no longer fill teacher vacancies. No one wants to work under those conditions. What a surprise. Why there's even one member on this board, not an educator, and yet who evidently has a say in school policy, who bashes teachers regularly despite the fact that his own town's local high school has won awards for being an excellent school. That's what's changed.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7006 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, S2000magician wrote: No. Ftfy. We all enjoy it when you dish it out, sir, but you must be able to take it just as well. Temper temper. Carry on. |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: Finally you said something I understand. What I do like is the use of the word disingenuous instead of lying. See all that education pays off after all. The word, lying seem so politically incorrect, whereas disingenuous does not. Your education is showing.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, magicfish wrote: I take it just fine, thank you. Any research on corrections of my errors here will bear that out. Go live in Charlotte for a year and a half; it's y'all. |
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Gbhunter77 Veteran user 379 Posts |
I would roll a dice or choose at random.
My youtube channel check it out its magic.
im not great but getting better. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMvQIycva0rFOIdArln7lEg |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
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On Jul 26, 2015, landmark wrote: Winning an award has nothing to do with running a school district and being financial responsible. Are you saying that the school you mention won the awards because the teachers are exceptional? Does that mean that all of the schools that did not win the award have bad teachers? Not sure what you are trying to prove here. There is no shortage of excellent teachers. In fact there are a lot of unemployed teachers and it has nothing to do with their ability to teach. In my area teachers get hired because of their connections not their ability. I know this for fact as I have been involved in a few such matters. However I might add that those who I helped obtain a position are not just good teachers they are exceptional. How do I know? In two cases I knew them since they were children and saw them grow up and obtain a teaching degree. Furthermore I personally reviewed all of their transcripts and background along with their college grades and teaching credentials before I helped push them along. I am not sure where teachers are hired on their ability or how they are tested on this ability. Maybe you can enlighten us on this. Remember I am saying ability, not education. One can have all the education required, but can they apply it properly is the question. I personally do not want to beat the dead horse about hours worked and days off and benefits of school teachers again and again and again and... Been there done that. If the school system you are referring to is the one where I am from. Do yourself a favor and check salaries and benefits against the national average. I believe we are in our area the 3rd highest paid. If you are referring to me as not knowing about running a school system you are very misinformed. Not saying I know it all nor have all the answers, but to say I don't understand what makes a school system run is absurd. Probably been involved in education system here for as long as you have been teaching. Probably longer. Just trying to say I am well versed in running a school district both financially and academically and leave it at that.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
I didn't say you haven't been involved in running a school system. What I was saying implicitly and explicitly is that even though you have influence in your school system (why you do, I'm not quite clear. Do you have an official role, or is it all backroom politics?), you continually bash teachers on this board.
It's amazing to me, for instance, that you could say something like "Are you saying that the school you mention won the awards because the teachers are exceptional?" How disrespectful. As if the hard work and experience of the teachers have nothing to do with its being a good school. And that kind of disrespect is what drives good teachers out of the profession.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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