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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » "I can't show you a proper demo... (22 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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EZrhythm
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Are the sleights angle proof? If not then why not show a performance from an angle that doesn't give the opportunity to sleuth (reverse engineer) them?
How many magicians does it take to change a lightbulb? Regardless, for magicians darkness is a time for d'lite.
robd
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:


Probably a mistake to mention a specific product. Distracts readers from your very valid point.

I agree 100% that "I can't show you a performance video because then you'll know how it's done" is a red flag.

I actually once read a review in one of the magic magazines where the reviewer wouldn't even tell what the effect WAS "because that would reveal the method". Incredible.


You're right, that was a mistake and also apologies to Geraint, as it wasn't meant for him to defend at all.

IAIN - totally correct, but I was thinking more about buying magic books I think, rather than video tutorials of single tricks. See, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with buying a trick where, if you were shown it a few times, you'd know the method. And in buying books before video demos, that could be what you were doing, who knew, but there was still a lot to be got out of the books because it wasn't necessarily just a bunch of methods which were being sold.

And for Fly - for 7 dollars you will be getting the experience of someone who has been doing this trick for ten years, knows it inside out and knows how to get the best reactions, technique tips, etc - in other words, tonnes more than just the method. But we can't really see the trick because of a focus on hiding the method.

We're as much a part of the problem I think; not buying a trick because you can work out the method, not showing the full trick because you'll work out the method - all suggests that the only important thing is the method, when perhaps there's much more to be sold, bought, learned than just that. It's pretty clear how 'Whack your pack' is done, for instance, but I'd still buy a video demo of Paul Harris doing it to learn about the stuff which isn't the method.

Unfortunately it also means that sometimes crappy tricks which won't fool anyone have something to hide behind. (Again, I don't mean Fly).
Myke Phillips
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Geraiant performed this for me in London after the secret filming of the Derren Brown penguin lecture and I thought it was brilliant. The effect seamed impossible to me.

He also got a girls phone number and a kiss in record time. Imagine this, we are leaving the taxi office to go home and a girl meets us on our way out the door. Geraiant says but a few words and she's all over him like a rash. We are talking 5 seconds and Bobs your uncle, Fannys your aunt, he's in there.

Myke
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tmoca
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2015, robd wrote:
...because then you'll work out how it's done".

Am I the only one who raises an eyebrow at this? That new 'Fly' trick has this at the start of the 'demo', and then shows *nothing* of the effect.


Agree. Why in the H@ll is there even video if you can't show the darn effect? Why waste my time? Just write up the description and leave it at that. It's like the "demos" that show nothing but animated text of quotes or telling you how your audience will feel. What a waste.

With that said, even the abbreviated description that IS there, still doesn't tell you how it looks. They just say what is happening...a card goes from one had to another. There are HUNDREDS of effects that do this and they can all look different!

Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. Smile
DynaMix
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2015, TheDirectionalist wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 12, 2015, DynaMix wrote:
I agree fully with the OP.

Also we should take the disagreements with a grain of salt if they are coming from creators/sellers of material.

From the consumer perspective I'd just rather see no video than one that is as useless as the above.

The real problem is just that magic is in a state where creators can get away with this. They'll still move units because we don't really demand better. Magic purchasers, particularly novice ones, will always be drawn to "hype" .

You realize even though I release material I still purchase effects from time to time so it doesn't make my opinion any less valid..

I don't expect to see demo videos, nor does it truly impact my decision because half of them are heavily edited anyways. I think if the effect is described well enough in the ad copy, then that's enough for me.

If they give no info, then I agree that's no good.


Yes obviously. I think everyone realizes that.
The grain of salt refers to the fact that a creator will always have motivation to defend ill practices of other creators, IF they want to.
Non creators will never see the value of a poorly made video. Just the way it is.
GeraintClarke
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, tmoca wrote:

...Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. Smile


I don't want your money. I just want to share my original magic effects.

In fact, I didn't even start this thread about my work. Someone else did.

For those that did buy it, they're loving it (ALL REVIEWS POSTED HERE : http://www.ellusionist.com/review/produc......-reviews ) and I'm happy that they do.

My goal with publishing magic isn't to make money, if it was, I wouldn't be publishing downloads for $4 on the wire, or $7 on Ellusionist that people would be happier to pay 3x as much for.

My goal here is to share my magic, with value attributed to it, to the largest audience I can.... In the hope that people love it and go and perform it.

Keep your money, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Those who buy it will love it, and those who aren't curious enough to care, then that's okay too.

Thanks for your time though tmoca.

- G
RNK
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On Aug 12, 2015, Doomo wrote:
Gee. For years I have worked hard to make sure ALL my demos were NO camera cuts, edits, tricky angles and such. The old line " This is how it looks to the audience..." is used to cover a multitude of weaknesses. To my mind that is usually a sign to keep walking.

Tony



Agreed. And as far as "go read reviews on Ellusionist...." yes, of course Geraint wants you to read them because they take down any bad reviews. Sad. Just like what happened in CHANGE
Solert
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I totally agree with you tmoca. If you don't show the uncut effet and/or performance why bother releasing a preview video?
GeraintClarke
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, Myke Phillips wrote:
Geraiant performed this for me in London after the secret filming of the Derren Brown penguin lecture and I thought it was brilliant. The effect seamed impossible to me.

He also got a girls phone number and a kiss in record time. Imagine this, we are leaving the taxi office to go home and a girl meets us on our way out the door. Geraiant says but a few words and she's all over him like a rash. We are talking 5 seconds and Bobs your uncle, Fannys your aunt, he's in there.

Myke
X


Thanks Mike, but that 2nd effect you mentioned isn't taught on this download. Hope you're well.

- G
GeraintClarke
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, RNK wrote:

Agreed. And as far as "go read reviews on Ellusionist...." yes, of course Geraint wants you to read them because they take down any bad reviews. Sad. Just like what happened in CHANGE


Bob Kowalkowski, you are sadly mistaken. Feel free to skype me and I'll screenshare our review panel for FLY. You can see the 4 and 5 star reviews that have been posted, and the only bad reviews are from NON-buyers who are moaning about the trailer.

I look forward to your PM. I'm available to Skype for the next 3 hours.

- G.
ixnay66
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Sounds like a good trick to submit to Genii or Magic Magazine.
robd
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Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at.
GeraintClarke
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On Aug 13, 2015, robd wrote:
Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at.


I accept your apology. That's big of you to come forward with that.
Ricardo Delgado
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Once I went to a conference to watch a Lennart Greeen lecture. I watched more, but I the reason I was there was Lennart Green.

After some of his tricks and explanations I was bananas.
One of those made me go crazy. It was just so good! It was the second time I was watching it, I've sawn it the night before on his full act. I knew he would follow the trick with the explanation, but my mind was racing. Then it hit me. Just before he started to explain I worked out the method. And then I confirmed it with the explanation. This effect is not on video (I'm not sure, but I think it's not). It's published on Lennart's conference notes (which are great, by the way).

The point is, if this effect was on video, after watching it two times I would get it. And I'll probably wouldn't buy it. At that time I didn't have the money (nor the maturity - I was just a kid) to spend in something I knew how to do. And this doesn't make this magic effect any less powerful. It's a great effect. I always get awesome reactions with it, and I've ben performing it for more than six years now.


Also, consider this:
If you saw a complete demo video of "The flight of the paper balls" (Slydini), would you buy the effect? You can TOTALY see what is happening and the method is completely obvious. Would you buy the effect?

Some will answer: "If Slydini was teaching it in video OF COURSE I would buy the effect" (SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!)

What if the effect was exactly the same, but it wasn't a Slydini creation, but some other less known magician. Or an unknown magician. Would you buy it then? After seeing "the complete demo where you can totally SEE the method"?
Do you think new guys in magic would give any value for that effect? Or would it become another "Flight of the paper balls explained" youtube poorly done video?


Just think about it. I know it sucks to not know what your are actually buying. But hey, a lot of effects are that way. The first book of magic you ever bought was probably like that. I bet you didn't know anything about magic then, and even so you bought it.

With that said, I know there are some crappy demo videos that sell "miracles" but deliver "my uncle does this" kind of magic. Or even magic with lots and lots of restrictions. We have to learn to sort out which ones are good and which ones are bad. And, maybe trust some reviews... Or buy magic only from trusted resources or dealers. But you shouldn't simply rule out that because a demo does not show the complete effect, it means it's a bad piece of magic.

About FLY,
After watching the video, I knew it was a transposition, and I knew it had something to do with sandwiched cards. and it seems like a good effect.
Of course, you can't find out much about the effect only with the video, but I guess you would never be discussing this effect if the video wasn't out there.

As terrible as a video can be, it IS the main form of publicity on the internet. How many of you really take the time to read and add about a magic trick without a link to a video? How many have you seen like that in the past 5 years?
robd
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, robd wrote:
Prob shouldn't have mentioned Fly. Sorry Geraint, not really what I was getting at.


I accept your apology. That's big of you to come forward with that.


It wasn't aimed at you or the trick really; like I said in the thread, there's probably a lot in the download which isn't just the method. Yours was just the one I happened to see which made me think about it. The post it note peek thing which Atlas was demoing was another one - once you saw the actual trick it was clear how it was done.

My point I guess (and as usual I'm working it out as I go along) is that I think it's OK to see how the trick's done if you can, because there's more value in a $7 download than just the method. But when a demo specifically doesn't show you anything about a trick it's a worry that the trick is hiding behind that 'disclaimer'. I'm sure yours isn't, as Gregory Wilson wouldn't have been impressed with it. I think it's crazy to not show a demo though - someone will have their own on youtube in no time, and it won't be done anywhere near as well as yours is. I think the worry about working out the method is that whole 'guarding an empty safe' thing really.
Luke Dancy
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Magic is in a weird spot these days....

Put out a trailer that fools you and often pepole complain about the method.

Put out a trailer that shows the effect, and fools 'real people', and magicians go on socials or YouTube bragging and dissecting the method to the public.

I remember the days when all we had was ad copy to imagine what an effect was and what it could be.

I'm curious as to what people want these days...what can truly make them happy with their buying decisions.

As a magic creator sometimes the gem of an idea, or plot, in general is the real secret...they don't fall off of trees.

I leave this in your hands and look forward to your honest feedback.

Keep on keepin' on...
MeetMagicMike
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Ricardo Delgado is completely right and let me add this:

The problem with a video demo is that it can be watched over and over again AND on a forum like this it will be discussed by dozens of magicians with various degrees of knowledge and the method WILL be figured out. This happens time and time again here at the Magic Café.

Newbies, no doubt. love it. Look up any effect and go through a few pages of guesses about magnets and sticky stuff and eventually you've got it. No need to buy anything unless it requires a gimmick.

Much of magic is clever routine-ing but of course once you watch a routine it's so easy to think "I could have thought of THAT!"

Think about years ago if you heard that so and so was doing a fantastic routine. You could go to his show or even have him show you in person but you would likely get one shot at it. Even if you were ballsy enough to film the effect you weren't likely to be able to sit around with dozens of magicians and try to figure it out. They would ask you why you don't just talk to the guy and buy the trick.

So now here we are in 2015 and a full video demo and a forum to discuss it are considered a constitutional right.
Magic Mike

MeetMagicMike.com



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DynaMix
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There is a sweet spot for most purchasers. Where the method is so good that even if you surmise it, you still want to purchase because the VALUE is there.

Maybe the props look excellent, maybe its a unique routine you can't get elsewhere, maybe its a genuinely new method or a step forward.

In these scenarios I feel the demo video can be a full performance and there is nothing lost. The seller may lose potential sales from novices, and I understand that hurts - but I think doing whatever it takes to sell something is at odds with what performers want, and always will be.

It's hard to look at this only from the "methodology" persepctive - in the venn diagram of magic its the intersection point between method, cost, and VALUE - which I understand is subjective.
DynaMix
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Hence my earlier walkback when I learned this was $7. Now is it worth $7, I don't know...but I know it (potentially) stings less, if that makes any sense.
cheesewrestler
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Quote:
<>

The point is, if this effect was on video, after watching it two times I would get it. <>


Also, consider this:
If you saw a complete demo video of "The flight of the paper balls" (Slydini), would you buy the effect? You can TOTALY see what is happening and the method is completely obvious. Would you buy the effect?

<>


1. Doesn't matter. Show me the effect being performed (one camera shooting from spectator/audience viewpoint is fine). I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like.

2. Flight of the Paper Balls. Terrible terrible example to use in defense of the "show nothing" approach to sales videos. Any time it's performed THE WHOLE AUDIENCE SEES HOW IT'S DONE. How many other effects is that true for?
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