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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » "I can't show you a proper demo... (22 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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insight
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I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike
GeraintClarke
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike


This isn't a fair comparison. Regardless if they know the secret or not, they have to buy your products to perform it. This is an impromptu card magic effect, so the same can't be said.

- G.
insight
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A customer who perceives no value will pay $0, regardless of whether it is a card trick or not.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike


This isn't a fair comparison. Regardless if they know the secret or not, they have to buy your products to perform it. This is an impromptu card magic effect, so the same can't be said.

- G.
robd
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For what it's worth I just bought Fly, it's only a few quid. I've so far only watched the performance, and whilst you can see where certain things will certainly have happened, you can't really tell what/how they've happened. And yes, you probably could reverse engineer it, but for £4.50 it's easier just to buy the fcking thing and learn it.

Would showing this performance hurt sales? I honestly don't think so. I don't regret buying it, and would have done if I'd have seen the effect anyway. And certainly not compared to some others I've seen - which I'm not going to mention again after having derailed things somewhat by initially mentioning Fly - where the method is so painfully obvious having watched the performance I wouldn't buy. I suppose the point is this: I want to see the effect not because I want to reverse engineer it, but because I want to see how fooling I think it is to a spectator.
Ricardo Delgado
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On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:

1. Doesn't matter. Show me the effect being performed (one camera shooting from spectator/audience viewpoint is fine). I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like.

2. Flight of the Paper Balls. Terrible terrible example to use in defense of the "show nothing" approach to sales videos. Any time it's performed THE WHOLE AUDIENCE SEES HOW IT'S DONE. How many other effects is that true for?


1. "Doesn't matter" is not an argument. At least not a good one. If you don't see a video of a performance you will not buy the effect? Then don't buy it.
But by those standards I think you would also never buy "Royal Road to Card Magic", "Card College", "Tarbell", "Expert Card Technique" or almost any other book on magic, full of effects which only a few get to be on video at some point.
Oh, but we are talking about video. So I'm also considering you don't have any of this in your shelf/wishlist "True Astonishments" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXnStqhGokM ), "Utopia" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59usGX9vo2g ), or pretty much any other DVD where they don't show you the complete effects on the trailer (almost all magic DVDs released).

2. It's the greatest example ever! XD It's besides the point that the whole audience sees how it's done. We are discussing the magicians point of view of a magic effect. And in this point of view, this effect has all the important things to this discussion: 1) It's a great effect; 2) You need instructions to do it properly; and 3) newbies may think it's simple enough to learn how to do it just by watching the performance. I don't get it why this could be misinterpreted as a terrible example.


I'm not defending the "show nothing" approach. I think that, when possible, there should always be a full demo, with the spectator point-of-view, without cuts. But that's not always possible without giving some people the chance to crack it down with enough re-plays. There are people like that who don't even want to perform the trick, just want to "teach" it freely on the internet!

"I don't care how it's done, I care what it looks like" - Perfect! If only all the other consumers (all the magicians, actually) thought like you, we could have the best demos ever (and even better magic!). But it's not like that. The secrecy of the method IS important. Yes, it's true we give too much importance to it, but the method IS important.

An example is "The Berglass Effects". A lot of people thought the "Holy Grail" was being finally published. People had HUGE expectations to the card magic of David Berglass. And his video performances could be found on internet for those interested. The book came out and loads of people were saying they didn't like the method, that it was not what what they were expecting, etc. The point here is, people wanted to know the method, they already knew what it looked like and even so, the method was disappointing for a lot of buyers. Why? Lack of a complete demo? Wasn't his magic good before? "ACAAN" and "Berglas' Effect" were two names for the same effect! And when the legend reveal his methods people come and say it's bad. Well, this is a case were the method clearly was more important (for a lot of people) than the way the effect looked like (the Berglas' presentations that they must all have watched).


The fact is, on our Era (the internet era), one of the first rules of magic is being broken all the time ("Don't show a trick for the same audience more than one time"). And I think the demos that don't show everything are the way creators and producers found to adapt to these times. However, is ridiculous to assume that, because a demo didn't show the complete trick without any cuts, it's a bad trick. Of course, there will always be the ones who try to mislead us to buy bad effects by hiding the weaknesses of the trick with clever editing. But hey, that's also why we have reviews!
cheesewrestler
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Quote:



If someone tries to sell me an effect without showing me what it looks like in performance - or, unbelievably, without even telling me what it is! - I will indeed not buy it. I am not alone in that regard. If someone is trying to sell a magic effect, that is a factor for him to consider as he decides how to market his product.

If a would-be seller decides not to show what an effect looks like in performance that is a very strong indicator that the effect is a weak one, or at least that the seller has no confidence in it. I bought Chris Capehart's LR dvd BECAUSE the trailer showed what it looked like. It looked great - and, like everyone else here, I know "how" LR effects are done.

If a performance video cuts away at a crucial stage of the performance that is absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life.

No doubt there will always be some people around who would prefer to spend their time watching demo videos over and over than to pay the effect's creator for his skill and imagination. It's up to the creators and sellers to decide if those are the people who should dictate an effect's sales strategy.
Ricardo Delgado
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:

If a performance video cuts away at a crucial stage of the performance that is absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life.

No doubt there will always be some people around who would prefer to spend their time watching demo videos over and over than to pay the effect's creator for his skill and imagination. It's up to the creators and sellers to decide if those are the people who should dictate an effect's sales strategy.


I get your point. But is not always like that. You can't say that as if it were 100% true. The DVDs I used as example above fit your description of "absolutely a sign that the effect is unlikely to play in real life". Besides that, there is even the fact that magic is thought (usually) to be performed/watched live, and not through a screen. A lot of aspects can loose strength with that: misdirection, magical atmosphere, disbelief suspension. That is why people don't usually buy a DVD of a play on the theater. They go to the theater.

Don't we always hear about how proper presentation can change an effect? If that is true, then one of the important factors for a trick to play in real life is the presentation you make of it. Yann Frisch once told this real anecdote about his act: He was rehearsing only the techniques, and his mother and sister told him it was terrible. They could see everything. Then he did everything again, exactly the same, only this time he used his character and the presentation. His family was marveled. They didn't notice it was the same thing.

And what I think is an important factor creators and sellers are considering: ultimately, what they sell is the secret (yes, I know there is more than that). If you are talking about a product like "The Magic Way" or "Strong Magic", then you have nothing to worry about, because those are books about theory. But when you are trying to sell a card trick, essentially, you are selling the secret. If the secret can be discovered by a magician, trough re-plays and knowledge, that doesn't mean it's a weak trick, right? But if the trick can be discovered by a magician, that also means that said magician may not want to pay for something he thinks he knows. And to top it off, some may value the secret low enough to think it should be free for everyone to see. If that happens, I think it may not be very good for sales. And it's worst even for magic itself: This can result in terrible "teaching" videos on youtube, lots of people knowing about a principle or move, and even lost of interest in the effect (now that everyone knows how it's done, is it really worth trying to perform it?).

Maybe that is the best selling strategy up to now. Who knows? Maybe, with the experience of selling magic products from the last 10 years, they noticed they could sell more like this. Idk.

Again, I'm not defending the creators/sellers side. Just raising points about it, so we could try to understand a bit better the other side. I agree with some things, but I completely disagree with the broad generalizations.
Ricardo Delgado
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:
If someone tries to sell me an effect without showing me what it looks like in performance - or, unbelievably, without even telling me what it is! - I will indeed not buy it. I am not alone in that regard. If someone is trying to sell a magic effect, that is a factor for him to consider as he decides how to market his product.


Well, if they try to sell something without telling what it is I completely agree with you. It's like that for everything in life!

By the way, I have a utility product for the house which is great! It does marvelous things. It costs like 250$ but you will not regret it. I just can't tell you what it is before you buy it. Only after. XD
ixnay66
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I've been in magic since before the Internet and demo videos. I honestly don't need to see a video but I DO need to read a basic explanation of the effect. "A card is selected and returned, half the cards are mixed face up with face down cards. All the cards magically right themselves except for the selection." I honestly don't think that's asking too much.
Xiqual
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What products are those Mike? You sell stuff? Can we have a link please?
James

Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike
Still with the Chinese circus Smile
insight
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PM me for a list of my available products. Thank you.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On Aug 14, 2015, Xiqual wrote:
What products are those Mike? You sell stuff? Can we have a link please?
James

Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, insight wrote:
I think transparency is very important in the sales process. As a producer of mentalism products, I believe in fully educating my consumers about my products, even if it means potentially losing sales. After all, why sell something to someone who doesn't want it? I encourage other producers to follow suit.

Regards,
Mike
J-Mac
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I don’t have Fly and so I won't even comment on it.

With regard to purchasing magic products without knowing enough about them, I rarely do that - only for a very select few creators in whom I have developed a strong trust. All else, well, I need to at least know what I am buying or I won't consider it. With products where I don’t really know the creator that well, it doesn’t matter who writes that they have known the person for X years and their products are always top-rate. I've seen that too many times from folks who turned out to be friends of the creator and I was disappointed.

Those great quotes from well-known magicians? They don’t do anything for me; I've been burned by those quotes before. And regarding "the old days of ad copy...", I'm probably at least as old as anyone here and I've probably seen all that you have. And the same concepts applied there. I need to know what I'm buying. If someone is too afraid that their secret will get out and they'll lose sales, well that can happen because of someone they sell to also. If you're THAT worried then maybe you should just perform your magic and leave the marketplace to others less timid.

Today there are just too many magic products selling for upwards of $100, and too many DVDs selling for $35 and up for me to just guess and take a chance. I have enough that I own right now to keep me busy for quite a few lifetimes!

BTW, video demos mean nothing to me. They can be helpful and informative - like Tony Miller's (as he commented on as Doomo, above, though there aren't too many creators as honest and open as Tony). But mostly they are there just to tease. If I don’t know enough about a product, I wait for people I trust to own it and then I'll find out if it's something I want. Otherwise I just move on my merry way!

Jim
JamieD
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My two cents. Magic is a visual art. Everything relies on someone being able to see what they are buying. Those who are comparing this to olden day written descriptions, its kind of irrelevant now. Life is about moving forward and expanding with the new technologies that are available to us. Over the past 10 years or so, Magic trailers have been likened to that of small (and sometimes large) scale film trailers. Can you imagine if films did not have trailers but rather just a short synopsis? Its not very likely! The production of magic trailers now is incredible. Now, a film is sold to its viewers by giving snippets of the film away but protects the full story. The trailer does not show you 'all' the good parts because then when the viewing public see the film, they'll feel as though they have already seen it and feel cheated. Equally, if they trailer showed the full story, then the viewing public would also feel cheated. Even when you read the synopsis of a film, little details are left out to protect the film and the viewers right to whatever surprises are involved.

Also, feel free to ask a magic dealer or producer the difference a trailer (good or bad) makes in terms of sales. It really affects everything! Even a poor trailer which shows nothing of the effect stimulates something in the buying that makes them want to see more or understand it more. Sure it may be a gamble to produce a video that way but that is what buying and selling magic is about. It is always a gamble.

Now being a magic creator and having produced my own effects, I understand the importance of protecting an effect. Equally, being an avid collector of new and old magic effects, I understand the frustration when I have been stung by a trailer. If we look at everything subjectively, and take everything into consideration. If I saw Geraints trailer I would realise that there is not a lot shown. So I would move onto the ad copy. If the ad copy isn't quite answering things, id look at the endorsements. From that I would look at the producer. Now as much bad there is about E, there is also a great deal of good. There is passion put into their productions and these guys have a genuine love for the art. The same as you or me. I know E puts a lot of time, money and effort into their productions and therefor I would trust them with this. Then I would look at the price point.

I remember when I first started buying magic DVD's. I purchased a DVD by Alan Rorrison called Fingers of Fury. The DVD was about £15 ($30) and from it I only got one trick. The trick used normal everyday slights. Wasn't anything particularly ground breaking but I loved it. 10 years on, Im still using that same effect every single gig. I love it. So I spent $30 on one standard card trick. Geraints effect costs $7. Now if I did buy that effect and end up using it for the next 10 years then wow, how incredible that I learnt something for such an incredible price. If I don't enjoy the effect, ill find worth somewhere else. In his performance or maybe the little nuances that help him to achieve the effect.

Lastly id come here because again, for all the negativity in here, there is a great deal of incredibly generous lovely magicians who have no reason but to be honest. I've gone through this post and surprisingly, not seen anything negative written about the effect itself. Only positive. Therefore, taking everything into consideration and not just the trailer, I would purchase this effect.

To me, the trailer is one very small part of everything that is afforded to us as magicians and as people living in this age of unfathomable technologies and information. The producer of course has a duty to represent their effect fairly but it is also their right to protect the methods and keep the viewer "wanting more". This particular trailer has achieved that ten fold as we are proving here by discussing it. It showed us an essence of what the effect was, kept us guessing and in tern, whether it be a good thing or a bad thing, it has brought the trailer into the mainstream.

I equally respect everyones viewpoint and whilst mine may not be to the liking of others, I hope you understand where I am coming from!

Jamie Daws
THE DARK SERIES - DECEASED - SCREAM - HE'S NOT HERE - www.JAMIEDAWS.CO.UK
RNK
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Very well stated Jamie! What I don't like to see is advertising like Dave Forrest did with his Triplex. There was no description of the effect in the ad. I was very surprised that Dave advertised that way. It seems he is a stand up fellow but advertising that way is very bad in my eyes. And if you look at the thread here about Triplex there is no positive vibes about it being good. Actually, I think only two people, Blindside and Lars, posted their thoughts which were very sub par. Now when you choose to advertise an effect in such a way as Triplex it better be a homerun.

RNK
writeall
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It's a card trick. What else do you need to know?

Oh, I suppose that it's from the people who pre-sold Change as "life-changing" - that's good to know too.
RNK
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On Aug 14, 2015, writeall wrote:
It's a card trick. What else do you need to know?

Oh, I suppose that it's from the people who pre-sold Change as "life-changing" - that's good to know too.


Of which those people are STILL claiming CHANGE to be LIFE CHANGING. That's just strait arrogance!
tmoca
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 13, 2015, tmoca wrote:

...Show us a video of what it looks like and if you can't then tell us what the heck is happening or you don't get my money. Smile


I don't want your money. I just want to share my original magic effects.

In fact, I didn't even start this thread about my work. Someone else did.

For those that did buy it, they're loving it (ALL REVIEWS POSTED HERE : http://www.ellusionist.com/review/produc......-reviews ) and I'm happy that they do.

My goal with publishing magic isn't to make money, if it was, I wouldn't be publishing downloads for $4 on the wire, or $7 on Ellusionist that people would be happier to pay 3x as much for.

My goal here is to share my magic, with value attributed to it, to the largest audience I can.... In the hope that people love it and go and perform it.

Keep your money, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Those who buy it will love it, and those who aren't curious enough to care, then that's okay too.

Thanks for your time though tmoca.

- G


That was a general statement touched off by the topic...although I obviously hit a nerve. (truth hurts some times)

Regardless of the price or reseason behind selling a creation, if someone is paying for something, be it $7 or $700, they still should have an idea of what they are purchasing. Now this may be a stretch, but if you are giving something out and there is any price tag on it, I think it is safe to assume that 1) you WANT someone to buy it, so let them know what it is you want them to buy and 2) I am pretty sure if there is any dollar amount attached to it, there is some desire to gain or recoup money from said purchases. Otherwise, the price tag is useless.

Finally, no need to worry, you won't get my money. Smile
tmoca
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On Aug 14, 2015, JamieD wrote:
Can you imagine if films did not have trailers but rather just a short synopsis?


I would much rather prefer this, especially as of late. I think film trailers do the exact opposite of magic trailers...they tend to show me MORE than I want to see. Give me the general plot and let me experience the movie. Don't shove all the good parts into a 2 minute trailer and expect me to pay for a full length film that showed all the best parts already for free Smile
Ray Thompson
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After reading too many of these posts it is obvious to me the posters should not have contributed to putting brick and morter magic shops out of business.
Ray Thompson, the Mind Wizard
www.hypnosisandmore.com
lumberjohn
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I don't really understand the "controversy" here or the justification for anyone complaining about how this effect was marketed. The choice of marketing is made by those who profit from the sale of the product. If their marketing is ineffective, their sales will suffer. If this is due to a particular marketing approach, that approach will die out naturally as others refuse to adopt it.

If the trailer for "Fly" doesn't motivate you to buy it, for whatever reason, then don't. Move on. Life is too short for these type of arguments.
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