After witnessing an inspiring lecture last night by Nathan Kranzo, I hung around with some of the local magicians to discuss the lecture and talk magic. Since I'm a newcomer to the area it was also a great opportunity to meet new people and find out about their specialties and aspirations in magic. One unassuming young man in his early to mid twenties was sharing his dream with myself and a seasoned member of the local magic clubs. The young man explained humbly that his goal was to become a full time professional magician. His interests ran the spectrum from stage to close-up. I could see in his eyes and hear the sincerity in his voice that conveyed that this was an endeavor he was taking quite seriously.

The seasoned magician suggested, half joking and half serious, that the ambitious magician find a wealthy wife who could pay the bills. I could see this point to some extent but began thinking that it must be possible for a person to make a decent living from magic. A living that would not require the magician to be dependent on anyone else's income for financial security. I've seen threads in the past that have asked Café members how many out there perform full-time as a way to earn a living. The responses were somewhat cloudy and without having done a search on the topic, it is my recollection that not many defined what "earning a living" meant to them.

For the sake of the kid I spoke with last night, who I sincerely would love to see make his dreams come true, it would be interesting to hear from those who do magic full-time and can support themselves or a family. Those who have a career in magic that can afford themselves a middle to upper middle class lifestyle, allow them to save for retirement and other costs (college education for children) and basically live a comfortable life with the security that would come from the typical 9-5 career (as if even that exists anymore in today's economy). Perhaps I'm assuming that this is what every person is aspiring for in life and I apologize to those who don't seek this type of conformity to society.

I remember going to a lecture presented by a very well known, respected, and intelligent magician. He arrived in a beat up mini van with a dirty futon mattress in the back along with a pile of clothing with a smell that reminded me of my college fraternity days. I was impressed that he was a full-time pro but also felt sorry for him in that I associated full time magician with low income accompanied by sporadic financial boosts from book sales and lecture appearences. I'm sure that this was a lifestyle he chose and probably has a very nice nest egg as a result of being a "working magician."

Anyway, please let those out there know that their dreams not only can be fulfilled but that they will pay the bills as well.

This is either a very sad response/no response or else those that actually are making a GOOD living as a performer are a little too busy to check in or formulate a reply.
Or, they want to keep it a secret?!?! Hmmmmm
However I do know there are plenty of professional magical entertainers that do make a very good living and it would be cool to hear some replies.

GlenD

There is another thread on this subject:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=27

Pro, Partime Pro, Hobbiest Which one!.

My story is simple when I wanted to quit the Paid Fire Fighter position with full medical, dental, vacation leave, nice salary, my fellow magician at the Houdini Magic Club in Phila really "beat on me" They reminded me I had a wife and family to consider and that in those "trying times" be thankful I had a job and a good one at that. It would be a mistake if I quit and tried to go full time.

I was told to give it a try but work on my days off, or while I took vacation days or holidays. So I went that route. Well... I broke an ankle bone and had it casted and I had a real nice magic gig. I still did the gig and got newspaper advertisemants and write up. Because I was working and I was injured on duty I was on "workman's comp." I could not do another job. To make a long story short. My choice was get fired, or suspended and fined.

Reality set in and I wasn't making enough to go at it alone. I had to give up my dream and focus on what my career was. (It didn't mean I gave up magic, just couldn't advertise and go full time)

Now that I am retired and can go full time (Not at that level yet) hindsite tells me those magicians were right FOR ME. I will never know if I could have done it back then.

Today, I have several friends who are full time and most of them are in finanical trouble tring to maintain a living. They are really good, much better than I, and they are struggling.

Be wary of those who say it's easy and promise finanical freedom and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Talk to many in your club, go to conventions and talk to the full timers, build a huge base of knowledge, because magic is more than standing on a stage doing a bag of tricks.

Most magicians who say they are making a five-figure income from magic, neglect to mention that there is a decimal point involved!

There are a couple of problems wrong with going full time. (Den, above, hits on several of them).

No benefits package that you can come up with as a self-employed magician is going to match anything that you can get as an employee.

"Self-employed" sounds good; it means no boss and no time-clock. But it also means no security, no paid holidays, no guarantee of ANY income, and so on.

Sure, there are full-time professionals out there with no income to fall back on. But for every one of those, there are tens of thousands of amateurs, hobbyists, semi-pros, and pros who are not quite making it. Your chances of success are better by buying lottery tickets!

Even if you get lucky -- extremely lucky -- and hit it semi-big, you have to run flat out just to stand still!
That's why so many today fold up after just a few years; the constant stress and grind is just too much.
Or you end up working in some sleazy travelling show, much worse off than you would be working for someone else in a factory or office.

Even the best of the past had great trouble doing it: Vernon was never able to make enough from magic to support a family (assuming he had any interest in that, which he never showed); most of the other big names -- Marlo, Carlyle, Mulholland, etc. -- all had other jobs to support them and their families (those who had families. And, yes, John Mulholland's work was indirectly related to magic, as editor of the Sphinx, but he did not perform full-time).

But who knows? You might be the next David Copperfield. Of course, you might also be the next colossal failure, too!

There is an old Chinese curse that goes:
Be careful of what you wish for; you're liable to get it.

There probably exists threads on most topics, here at The Magic Café, if anyone takes the time to do searches for as much information as possible on a given subject.
But if all we are to do is execute search functions for topics already having been discussed then this place will become nothing more than an online magic encyclopedia.
That in itself is not a bad thing and I am all for continued creative thinking and posting of fresh ideas and thoughts. But I also feel that new discussions on old or previously discussed topics should be welcomed and encouraged. New input is always going to be generated and perhaps there will be some that respond that maybe did not on the previous discussion.

GlenD

While reading this thread 2 questions entered my mind.

First:

How many people really want to go pro? Not tabblehopping once in a while, or the weekend gig, but real full time no other income than PERFORMING MAGIC.

Second:

For those who have tried and failed. What happened? What pitfalls did you encounter and how can they be avoided/overcome?

I don't mean, "not enough gigs that's why I failed"
I mean was the marketing too hard, the act not good enough, the travel too much, did other areas of your life suffer to greatly.

Maybe we can start a conversation on why it didn't work so others can think of ways around our obstacles.

GlenD writes: ". . . new discussions on old or previously discussed topics should be welcomed and encouraged."

Absolutely!

First of all, new members should be allowed a chance to have their say, since they may not have been here when a specific topic was originally discussed.

Second, events may have changed that make new insights necessary.

Third, those who have posted in the past may have come up with new and/or different ideas and views and should be able to have a place to voice them.

Fourth through infinity, well, you get the idea!

Peter and Glenn,

You have reflected my thoughts perfectly. Mainly that there is a constant flow of new members joining the forum daily.

If the powers that be lock a topic because it has been discussed before (This has happened to me), all it takes from there is for enough topics to be locked out and suddenly the new comers have no place to put there input, they are forced to "Look it up because it has been discussed on a previous thread" (And how are they supposed to know this anyway, considering that they are brand new to the forum)

Anyway, it could reach a point where every one is looking up old threads, but hardly anyone is contributing new input, and things really start to stagnate! (This is of course a worst case scenario)

But the point is, the newbie’s to the forum need to be able to have their say on old topics.

There are several topics I would like to share in, but they have been previously discussed before I joined in December of "03.

So I suppose I'll keep it all inside. (Sigh)

See how dangerous this is? We are already off topic and in danger of being deleted!

Ok so let's get back on topic.

When I was living in L.A., I worked at Wizardz and Disneyland performing magic. That was enough to pay the bills and what not, but it definitely wasn't what I would consider a "living". I met up with Joel Bauer a couple of times and from what I hear about his tactics of obtaining work and performing etc., he's a monster. I have seen a couple of my other friends go full out pro and at the moment they all seem to be doing ok. I guess one of my personal fears is that of medical benefits. Medical coverage seems to keep going up every year and unless I'm making well into the six digit income, by the time I'm 60 I'm going to be in a world of hurt. How can I overcome this as well as save for a family and home if that happens to be in my future?

Let's get started!

Best,

Dorian Rhodell

Dorian writes: "Medical coverage seems to keep going up every year and unless I'm making well into the six digit income, by the time I'm 60 I'm going to be in a world of hurt. How can I overcome this as well as save for a family and home if that happens to be in my future?"

Well, I suppose you could move to Canada! LOL!

Dorian,

Buy the time your 60, you'll need 5 digits to get a tooth pulled, and six digits may be the starting salary of an employee for McDonalds.

When I stared Fire Fighting in 1968 I was making $3,000 a year, when I left in 1996, I was in the low $40,000 ... A factor of 13, using a factor of 10... 25 years from now would be $400,000.

Focusing on the issue, to make ends meet, support a family and own a home in suburbia one needs an annual salary of around $40,000. This is a conservative estimate. For those who think it's low, I agree, for those who think it high, well if you take into consideration medical insurance, taxes, location of where your living, you might be right... it is high, however, there are probably very little populated cities in that area and you might have to travel 100 miles or more per gig.

In today's time (2004) $800 per week... 50 weeks, (2 weeks vacation), you need at least 2 corporate shows every week at $400 each, 4 birthday parties a week at $200 each (more if charging less) or 1 fundraising show a week at an $800 price tag per week.

Now double this if you want to make this amount because you can't possibly make this kind of money without promoting and marketing on a continuous basis, AND THAT COSTS MONEY. To do this you need education in these areas so there are conventions you need to attend. To have funds continually coming in to supplement your income you need to write books, and market magic (that sells before someone steals your idea or is able to make it on their own).

Can it be done, absolutely! But marriage is out of the question until you are firmly entrenched in the magic community with a recognizable name. (One they can remember easily) Expect to do hundreds of shows a year to get started. You cannot jump into stardom; unless you win a magic lottery ticket...odds are about the same or get national TV exposure on a continuous basis (Another lottery shot with many tough barriers). You could befriend famous people who will finance you to getting exposure.

To do this you have to be ruthless and kind, extrovert with humility, energetic and be in the right place at the right time.

I am 57 and trying to do what I always wanted to do when I was 21, be that stage entertainer which pleases family audiences with fun, and laugher using magic as a medium. It has taken me 3 years to accumulate the illusions, lighting, the magic, the books which I read every day, etc. (Much more than this) to get up to speed to go in the direction I want. Unlike you, I am nicely pensioned, have full medical and dental, have put most of my kids through college, and now it is time for ME, with the loving support and daily encouragement from my wife and kids.

I now have been given the opportunity to see my dream through; however, I realize I will not have many years to do it, unless I have John Calvert's genes. My dream is NOT to be know as another David Copperfield (Not fame), not to be rich like David Blaine or Bill Gates (would be nice though), but to give back and complete my life with creating joy, fun and happiness for many and make some decent money at it. Yes, I have a business plan with promotional and marketing strategies, objectives, time schedules, and a finely focused market. In the mean time, I still do birthday parties, and school shows.

Hopefully, this post has meaning to you and has put the realities of what is necessary to be a professional and what full-time means.

Being a full time Professional Magician is like being full time at any other self employed endeavor. It takes a ton of work to make the overhead!

I think that many people see being a full time magician as simply practicing and performing the routine. Not so. That is the smallest part of the business. I think that many people forget that being a magic performer is part of show business. The emphasis is on business! This is the exact same problem that an actor, comedian, acrobat, juggler, or animal tamer faces (or an antique dealer, independent medical practitioner, private detective, small boutique owner, and on and on including all the small individually owned business out there).

I know individuals who have made nice livings performing. They took their acts anywhere they could, streets, small fairs, clubs, trade shows, carnivals, even the circus. They each spent most of their time promoting and selling their act.

The entertainment industry doesn’t seem to have much room at the top but has plenty of room down the ladder for a hard working person. Will you get rich? Probably not. But then on average, are you going to get rich doing anything else? Probably not!

No matter what you chose as a life endeavor (unless you work for the government or some faceless giant corporation) you can fail!

And when it's all over and you're looking back, will you say "I wish I had..."

Reading this thread raises a question in my mind: What's the average yearly income for pro magicians?

I myself can't really contribute too much to the thread, because I'm nowhere near pro yet (not even near semi-pro). But, I do know about self-employment. I've been looking into it for a while, and even tried it out last year.

Self-employment is difficult, and only really works if you find the right business for yourself. I went through Primerica, a financial services company, and I didn't do so well. Partially because I didn't believe in the product completely. When you're trying to sell your services, you need to believe in them.

I don't know that I'll have any better results with magic or anything else I try, but if I believe in it more, and enjoy it more, I'm more likely to succeed.

Probably the best way to "get rich" is to invest your money. Yeah, we've had a recession, but that's really not an obstacle to investing, if you do it long term. I'm a member of the Motley Fool (www.fool.com), and they have a lot of good information and educational articles there on stocks and investing. Plus, membership is free, and you can't beat free, right?

Two Words. Real Estate.

:stout:

Get Rich Schemes:

When my father died I gave him his eulogy.

Background Info: He spent thousands on lottery tickets, thousands on collectable items- hoping they would become valuable someday, he started a personalized business out of house in specialty products and failed, he started a ceramic business and failed. He put his house in second mortgage to pay off his credit card debt (didn’t pay the bills - used the money for other schemes).

We all knew this and, in his eulogy, I mentioned he was the richest person in the world, he produced four boys who all were steadily employed in great jobs, and none ever got in trouble with the law, or used drugs. He had 10 grandchildren and in all this he died never knowing how wealthy he was.

Magic is a business like any other business and without a "business sense" you will be doomed for failure. Most magicians spend all their time in magic and neglecting the business side (at least one day a week devoted to this... David Ginn spent Mondays calling, mailing, seeking school shows, etc.)

If you never studied books on business such as Jay Levison’s "Guerilla Marketing", or books on direct mailings, you are not conducting a business properly.

As far as real estate, it is the only commodity that never goes down. Yes, you can make millions in real estate but again, it is in knowing how to do it, taking risks, and working very, very hard at it.

Is it money you want or is it happiness, it would be nice to have both but you can't find happiness, you got to give it to receive it back.

As an example, I have a business that no one in the country does, the need is great, yet it isn't what I love to do. I stumbled on to it...It is clean, and a demand is there, but one must do what comes from the heart to enjoy doing it. Being a millionaire, does not bring happiness, it does create fights on how to spend it...No I'm not a millionaire.

If get rich is what you’re looking for, for most... magic is the wrong field to become financially secure.

Does magic pay?

David Copperfield supposedly makes close to 40 million a year, so I read.

The kings make a good bit of money, while most struggle to make a living. You will need to do lectures, write books, teach, do shows, and sell original created magic, just to be a full time pro. As one old sage, said, "So you want to make money at magic, well then you must do kid shows." There is a lot of truth in this. Most full-timers do a lot of kid shows. If you don't or can't do kid shows, you are limiting your options.

So far there is more sage wisdom on this thread than in any book I have ever read on the subject.

Keep it coming fellas, you're on a good roll!

My goal is to eventually earn 50% of my income from magic.

I'm at that point right now, but I'm not happy with it. In fact, about 75% of my income comes from magic and the other from a part time job.

So why only 50%?

Because I want the other fifty percent to come, not from a job, but from investments and other streams of income.

If I have 100% of my income stemming from my actual performance of magic, then I'm going to be in a world of hurt if I ever get in a car wreck or have a sickness that disables me for ANY length of time. By having 50% of my income from investments, be it real estate or stocks or whatever, I could survive financially.

Oh, the 401-K plans, and other investments to ensure proper retirement for the family is a subject in itself. A major reason to charge what one charges. This is part of business, planning for the future and not for the moment.

Den writes: "As one old sage said, 'So you want to make money at magic, well then you must do kid shows'."

Absolutely!

Hank Moorehouse asked Jay Marshall one time what he (Moorehouse) had to do to make big money from magic.

Jay said, "Do you do birthday parties?"

Hank replied that what he meant was should he get an agent, or where should he advertise, or things like that.

Jay just shook his head and walked away.

Hank got the point, fortunately!