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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: Cute, but kind of side-stepping the point. Why is the implied right to property ownership privileged over the right to food and water?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: Who said it was your orange tree?? Paying for an orange tree with money does NOT make it your orange tree!! That is the lie I keep telling you about - they are selling you stolen property!! The orange tree belongs to itself ... no man can sell it. It doesn't belong to us - it belongs to the Earth. The orange tree GIVES us oranges; it doesn't "sell" them to us. The only thing it asks for in return is that we take care of it so it can. Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: Is the lady that made your breakfast "valuable"?? If she doesn't cook, the doctor and the cancer researcher can't heal and research. And if the dishwasher doesn't wash dishes, she can't cook, so then the cancer researcher can't research and the doctor can't heal. Get over yourself already!! You are as worthless as everyone else on this planet, you breath oxygen and exhale carbon ... that's it. Nothing more. Grass is more useful to a river or a mountain than you are!! I'm just telling you the truth dude ... you act like a doctor is more valuable than his servants, no ... the master is no greater than the servant. We are "equal". All of us. Everyone. In a world without money, someone will step up to the plate and cook for the doctor and the cancer researcher. I have absolute faith in human beings. -JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote: So a street sweeper is just as valuable to a community as a doctor? Apart from society their lives are equal, but living in a society it's not even close. Since you're talking about us living together all this talk about self sufficiency apart from society is moot at best, dishonest at worst If you think that the sweeper is as important to a community as a doctor then I suggest you go down to a sanitation depot the next time you're ill. Let me know how that works out for you. And we are not all one. We are individuals who happen to live on the same planet. Saying that we are all one is just more feel good words that are not only false but extremely damaging.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, landmark wrote: It's privileged because there is NO inherent right to food and water. Of course there is no INHERENT right to property ownership but it is a recognized right, which one exercises by virtue of ones ability to do what is necessary to exercise it. At least for now.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
"Wages and incomes for the majority of U.S. workers are no longer connected to how productive they are on the job. Conventional economic theory suggests that, in an efficient economy, workers should be paid based upon what they contribute to production.i However, what workers are paid has, for the past generation, lagged far beyond their productivity. Historically these two indicators grew in tandem,but in the 40 years between 1973 and 2013,the relationship between worker output per hour,or labor productivity, and compensation began to break down. Labor productivity, or average output per hour of work, increased 161 percent while compensation paid to workers—including wages and other non-wage benefits—rose only 19 percent after adjusting for inflation.4 (While employers paid slightly more in totalcompensation, this largely reflected an increase in costs of health care benefits paid by employers. In other words workers didn’t see any increase in their standards of living.)
In addition to low wages, getting a decent job remains a challenge for many Americans. Even as the national unemployment rate fell to 5.4 percent as of April 2015, most American families know the labor market remains weak.5 The overall share of the U.S. population at work—a broader measure of labor market activity than the unemployment rate—remains at around 59 percent.This is well below pre-recession levels and far below the peak of the nearly 65 percent employment-to-population ratioreached at the tail end of the 1990s economic boom.6 Even among those counted as employed, 6.7 million people are working part time because they can’t find full time work, a 54 percent increase from 10 years ago.7 These declining prospects for work are a direct result of the structural factors discussed at length in the section of this report entitled “The Current Rules.” For example, the Federal Reserve has chosen to prioritize price stability over full-employment, and thus failed to keep labor markets tight. The federal government has used fiscal (tax) policy to reward high-income earners rather than to make critical public investments that boost growth and compensation. Regulatory and legal changes have incentivized the private sector to prioritize short-term gains rather than the long-term investments in capital, research, or training that increase productivity." http://www.rewritetherules.org/ |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
@NYCTwister
"It is a recognized right" By those who own it. As to food and water, the right to one's own survival is about as recognized a right as I can think of. See, when you dig down deeply enough, the baseline assumptions are telling. The "libertarian" line really is just another form of privileging the rights of property owners over others.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
"Much of the increase in wealth is attributable to the increase in the value of fixed assets and not the reflection of an increase in productive value. The most obvious and widespread example is the massive rise in real estate values. If the value of real estate increases thanks only to the rising price of the property it sits upon and not to physical improvements, this does not lead to a more productive economy; no workers have been hired, no wages paid, no investments made. In economic terms this gain is simply a “land rent.” Some of this increase in the property value is a natural consequence of urbanization, but much is due to the financialization of the economy, including the increased supply of credit—credit that typically goes to those that already have wealth. Land rents are the most obvious source of rents in the economy, but economists have identified many others, including drug pricing, copyrights, and other forms of intellectual property.
The capitalized value of rents gives rise to wealth, and so if rents increase, so will wealth. If monopoly power increases, monopoly profits will increase, and so too will the value of the monopolies—the measured wealth of the economy. But the productivity of the economy will decrease, and so too will the value of wages adjusted for inflation. Inequality will also increase. Forthcoming theoretical work to be released by the Roosevelt Institute points out that there are many other examples of such “exploitation” rents, and that changes in the rules that structure the economy can lead—and plausibly have led—to an increase in these rents and their capitalized value. For instance, if the concentration of the banking system increases such that more banks are “too big to fail,” the value of banks will increase, not because they will become more efficient, but because their monopoly power and the expected present discounted value of a government bailout will increase. In this analysis, we make a distinction between capital and wealth. Only an increase in the former necessarily encourages growth; therefore, the productive capacity of the economy may not be increasing in tandem with measured wealth. In fact, productive capacity may be falling even as wealth is increasing.14... RENT-SEEKING noun 1. The practice of obtaining wealth not through economically valuable activity but by extracting it from others.... In the last 30 years, sometimes under the radar, our economy, politics, and society have shifted. Where there was once a balance of powers between the private sector, labor institutions, and government, we now have forces pulling us in the direction of greater inequality. This means weak demand and reduced growth. It also means less long-term investment in education and research and development, and thus less innovation. These forces ultimately undermine the American Dream, the belief that if you work hard and play by the rules you will succeed. Today, the life prospects of young Americans are determined largely by the income or education of their parents. We once stood out as a country that provided the greatest opportunity to succeed; now we stand out as one of the advanced economies that provide the least mobility." p.28 "The finance industry has shifted away from its essential function of allocating capital to productive uses and has moved toward predatory rent-seeking activities. In addition to catalyzing the 2008 financial crisis, these activities have slowed growth, increased the risk of future crises, and moved income from the bottom and middle to the top, increasing inequality." http://www.rewritetherules.org/ |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
[quote]On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: Quote:
Who said it was your orange tree?? Paying for an orange tree with money does NOT make it your orange tree!! That is the lie I keep telling you about - they are selling you stolen property!! The orange tree belongs to itself ... no man can sell it. It doesn't belong to us - it belongs to the Earth. So NO ONE owns, and therefore has the right to decide about, anything? That means there are no decision makers, or are there? Who decides who gets to decide? A worldwide vote? Are you really that naive to think that this leads to anything but disaster? Here's a newsflash - not only can a tree be hugged it can also be owned. While you were pontificating you forgot to tell me who gets to decide what constitutes the common good. Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: Quote:
Is the lady that made your breakfast "valuable"?? If she doesn't cook, the doctor and the cancer researcher can't heal and research. And if the dishwasher doesn't wash dishes, she can't cook, so then the cancer researcher can't research and the doctor can't heal. Is this what will pass for logic in freeworld? This is precisely why the doctor is more VALUABLE TO SOCIETY. The doctor can probably cook for himself, and can certainly wash his own dishes if necessary, all the while still being a doctor, and NOT vice versa. Stop twisting what I say. I am not saying that the cook has no value. What I'm saying is that the cook has less value to society. Especially a society such as you propose which would collapse under the weight of it's massive flaws within days. Then the comparative values of the two occupations will be glaringly apparent. Quote:
Get over yourself already!! You are as worthless as everyone else on this planet, you breath oxygen and exhale carbon ... that's it. Nothing more. Grass is more useful to a river or a mountain than you are!! If you feel that you, and everyone else, are worthless then speak for yourself. If your goal is to be useful to a river then knock yourself out. I'm starting to think that you went to the same school of analogies as Kam. Quote:
I'm just telling you the truth dude ... you act like a doctor is more valuable than his servants, no ... the master is no greater than the servant. We are "equal". All of us. Everyone. Now you've exposed the basis for your delusion. Café rules prevent me from going further. One vacation is enough. Besides I kinda like this kinder, gentler NVMS. For the last time I'm saying that apart from society we are all equal. Within society we are not equally as valuable TO society, despite your delusions and decrees from on top of an orange tree. Quote:
In a world without money, someone will step up to the plate and cook for the doctor and the cancer researcher. I have absolute faith in human beings. That is nothing but your opinion based on nothing. Btw why is it better that the doctor has to rely on someone else to step up, when he can just use the money he earned, practicing a trade people value, to pay for the food he wants. Why is the uncertainty of your world better. Your way we are all bound to each other by our most base needs. You know, like communism. A wise person once said something that has always stuck with me. "The purpose of civilisation is not to bind people together. It's to set them free of one another so they can come together by choice."
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, NYCTwister wrote: If you are taking care of an orange tree, and it is feeding you ... then you are in a "relationship" with that orange tree. You can be in a relationship with your wife, and not "own" her. You can be in a relationship with your children and not "own" them. It is about changing how we perceive the Earth around us, our perspective. The Earth is the hand that feeds us, We are biting the hand that feeds us. -JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, landmark wrote: It's a recognized right.....by virtue of the laws we all follow. The desire to survive does not translate into a right to obtain what you need to survive free of charge and effort. The right to own property, and I'm not just talking about real estate, is "privileged" (I guess) due to a persons ability to earn, obtain, and maintain it. It's available to all who choose to do what it takes to earn it. Besides what is the alternative? That the government owns everything? That no one does? That everyone does? What's your solution Jack? And please don't label me. I'm so in the center I can balance on the head of a pin.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote: Sorry but more bad analogies. As far as we know an orange tree is not a sentient being. It can't act volitionally, and is at the mercy of it's environment. If we learn differently then we should, and probably will change. I do agree with your last sentence though.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
It doesn't have to be a sentient being; there are a lot of guys in relationships with their cars giving them names and talking to them. They value them, just like other people talk to their plants.
What relationship do you have with your food?? Just how important is it to you?? -JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
"In the years since, however, a number of new studies are continuing to show that plants are smarter than we think. It’s tempting to believe that since plants are rooted in place, they aren’t capable of the complex thought processes that an animal that can run from predators or make its way across town for a cup of coffee is competent enough to achieve. But in a recent article in National Wildlife, author Janet Marinelli cited several reports to the contrary, including one by Italian botanist Stefano Mancuso, a University of Florence professor and plant neurobiology pioneer, who states that just because plants can’t move or run in the way that we do doesn’t mean they aren’t smart."
http://goodnature.nathab.com/research-sh......rdingly/ |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote: Yes and their cars are property. Would they value them as much if they had gotten the car for free? Be honest, and it's not just a matter of what they've been taught.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
I believe people can value their cars as much as people used to value their horses; the difference is the horses can value the human being as it is alive. A living horse is worth more than any dead car.
-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, magicalaurie wrote: That was VERY interesting, thanks Laurie. Two things came to mind - 1. I was wrong, at least on some levels. 2. Vegetarians have a lot to think about.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote: Not the question. Are you sure you're not related to Kam?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Intrepid Inner circle Silver Spring, MD 1179 Posts |
As action speaks loader than words, I'm anxiously waiting for someone to prove my skeptism wrong and personally take the leadership to put these ideals into practice through the automated production of unlimited and free chocolate bars on the scale needed to satisfy world wide deman. If JoeJoe is not up to proving the skeptics wrong, is there someone else with the confidence to put words into action on the industrial scale that the FWC claims is possible. So far the examples given have been nothing more that is inherently in mans nature. Like JoeJoe my dad had a home garden and routine gave his harvest away. Nothing new there. Man has been generous on this level since the beginning of time and always will be. Its in our nature. But if the skepticism of FWC claims regarding the viability of massive automated production of free goods is misplaced then why wont their proponents prove us wrong? I'd hate to think that the absense of free chocolate bars on a worldwide scale is because the FWC proponents are selfish, but as they insist our critism is wrong, what other reason would prevent them from putting their ideals of fully automated production into action?
Bob
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, JoeJoe wrote: But a dead horse is worth the same as any dead car. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Sep 19, 2015, S2000magician wrote: I for one am tired of seeing this particular dead horse beaten.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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