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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On Oct 13, 2015, funsway wrote: I'll buy one...got a recommendation?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 13, 2015, funsway wrote: True. But then that still doesn't validate the efficacy of alternative treatments, now does it? Quote:
Relying on "scientific demonstration" assumes that people make decisions rationally. It is easy to verify that they do not. Just because some people don't make decisions rationally doesn't mean we should then substitute science with something else. Quote:
Why should they accept the advice of a doctor who cheats on his Medicare billing? And tell us why alternative practitioners are so trustworthy again? Quote:
Science can certainly indicate which option is "better than" another under some circumstances. It cannot determine what solution is "best" since that is entirely subjective to the individual. What science can do is put an objective claim to the test and see if the claim meets it's burden of proof. Quote:
I think it is great that some doctors throw in alternative treatments along with the best science they know. They are dealing with people and not lab rats. But if they "throw in alternative treatments" (i.e., unproven and unscientific treatments) then they are essentially treating people as if they were indeed lab rats! Quote:
What I know to be true is that right now I have friend that will die of cancer in the USA where he could be cured by "proven science" in Europe. Politics and greed aside, how does this validate alternative treatments again? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 13, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote: LOL! Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Treating people like lab rats is a good way to a malpractice suit.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Oct 13, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: what subject/venue would you enjoy? performance magic, metaphysics, divination, mentalism, poetry, short stories, Christmas stories, mysticism, elder care, motivational? my best selling one is "T.U.C. Appreciation", largest distribution of an eBook is "FurstTime" My wife's favorite is "Limora Gate" Most gifted is "Christmas Dozen" send me some thoughts to funsway@eversway.com and maybe I'll just send you something.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
R.S. -- glad you are taking an interest and most of your questions are answered by just reading the provided information.
nothing has ever been offered as "validating" alternative treatments, only pointing out their frequent use by professionals. One essential consideration is the "right of choice." That may not be scientific for you, just a reality. You walk into a doctor's office. The receptionist smiles, treating you like a lab rat since that is not a proven technique of patient care. The sitting room is nicely appointed and comfortable. Has it been scientifically proven that patients respond better to certain colors and patterns? Yes, but no clinical trials so that is just lab rat stuff. The doctor has a "brag wall" that suggest he has been judged competent by his peers -- and a photo with him and a past President. Is that scientific? How dare he play with our emotions like that! He remembers a joke from our last meeting months ago. Watch it doc! That is not approved medical treatment. All I am allowed to know is what color pill to take. Don't try and make me feel better about my health condition or the value of living. I don't want any treatment that is not scientifically proved to be good medicine. Validate my parking? No way! Can you provide scientific proof that might help me heal faster? What do you think I am anyway, a person?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 14, 2015, funsway wrote: Funsway, So is this a roundabout way of saying that modern (conventional) medicine is cold and impersonal, while the alternative practices treat people with more, uh... dignity and respect? Are you pointing out basic human psychology? Or are you suggesting something else? It would help if you would just get to the point rather than relate amusing stories of witchdoctors in villages, or hypothetical smiling receptionists and "brag walls." I've already said, more than once, that I am all for a patient's "right of choice." Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
My "point" was made very clear in my fist post on this thread -- to which even Danny said, "Anything that helps give people the will to keep living can't be all bad."
Every other posting and story has been in response to some (to me weird) position offered by someone else. That is what discourse is all about. To provide other readers a variety of ideas to choose from. I don't really care if others agree with my view that alternative treatments has a place in the "best medicine" approach for any individual. What is important is a choice of views. Great that you are in favor of a "patient's right of choice" -- but does appear that you think some scientist should but those choices in order and rank them. If "ranking and ordering" is desirable, why shouldn't "iife experience" of friends, spiritual advisers, enemies, etc. be as valid as that of the published results of a clinical trials? by analogy -- if a waitress asks, "Do you want pie or ice cream for desert?" you have several choices beyond the two offered. "yes" and "no" are both valid responses. If undecided you can turn to others for advice. The waitress, though a professional, may be biased in her recommendation. Do you ask a fat person or a skinny one? Do you Twitter a thousand strangers to discover their preference? Do you look to scientific studies as to life expectancy of those preferring one over the other? Do you look on the label of this "feel good medicine" and read the disclaimers? By any evaluation eating either is not "good medicine" from a health standpoint. Why are they served by hospitals? Why do doctors eat them?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 14, 2015, funsway wrote: No. But I do think it would be nice if the general public was more educated about alternative treatments. And about science in general. Quote:
If "ranking and ordering" is desirable, why shouldn't "iife experience" of friends, spiritual advisers, enemies, etc. be as valid as that of the published results of a clinical trials? Because of the inherent flaws in making decisions based on things like "life experience of friends, spiritual advisers, enemies, etc." - that's why. Clinical trials do a great job of eliminating things like confirmation bias, poor or exaggerated anecdotal evidence, etc. from the very things you mentioned. Therefore, how can something be as valid as the thing that has the power to discredit it? Quote:
by analogy -- if a waitress asks, "Do you want pie or ice cream for desert?" you have several choices beyond the two offered. "yes" and "no" are both valid responses. Having preferences and choices in life is fine. But simply having lots of things to choose from doesn't help us when we want to know if a claim meets it's burden of proof, does it? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Funnier all the time.
a claim doesn't have a burden of proof. A person making a claim might - and if you desire one, go for it. Other people rely on trust validated in other ways. If you cant' trust the people making the claim, why should one trust the treatment they recommend? Please demonstrate (prove) that most people require that a person meet a burden of proof, or even know what that means. For me, a clinical trial does not automatically meet MY requirement as to burden of proof -- and certainly not always ethical standard as to "helping people." No -- people want the medicine recommended by some rock star or ball player on TV -- and the only reason for a clinical trial is to protect against law suit. But, all of this has little to do with the them of the thread. Does alternative medical treatment have a valid place in health care? I have offered cases in which it does. You just harp on why scientifically tested treatments are to be preferred. Everyone has agreed with that. Why keep repeating it? Please show evidence that it HARMS someone to have alternative treatment along with your approved methods. Burden of proof is on you.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 14, 2015, funsway wrote: Claims certainly can have a burden of proof. Acupuncture rests on the claim that "chi" and "meridians" exist. Reiki rests on the claim that there is a "universal life energy" which can be manipulated, etc. Quote:
Other people rely on trust validated in other ways. If you cant' trust the people making the claim, why should one trust the treatment they recommend? Are alternative practitioners immune from that sentiment? Quote:
Please demonstrate (prove) that most people require that a person meet a burden of proof, or even know what that means. I never said or implied that "most people require that a person meet a burden of proof, or even know what that means." Quote:
For me, a clinical trial does not automatically meet MY requirement as to burden of proof -- and certainly not always ethical standard as to "helping people." Well, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own "facts". Quote:
No -- people want the medicine recommended by some rock star or ball player on TV -- and the only reason for a clinical trial is to protect against law suit. Wow... that's the most ridiculous and misinformed thing I've heard in a long time!! Do you personally believe that clinical trials only serve a legal purpose, but not a scientific purpose??? Quote:
But, all of this has little to do with the them of the thread. Does alternative medical treatment have a valid place in health care? That's a theme of your own making. I could just as easily argue that the theme of the thread is "is alternative medicine effective"? And I could just as easily ask why you keep harping on freedom of choice. As far as me harping on why scientifically tested treatments are to be preferred, my view is that it can't be repeated enough. Especially in this wildly superstitious world. We need more science and less nonsense in the world, don't you agree? Quote:
Please show evidence that it HARMS someone to have alternative treatment along with your approved methods. Okay... http://whatstheharm.net/ Quote:
Burden of proof is on you. No, that's not how it works. I'm not the one claiming that chi, or chakras, or universal life energy, or meridians, etc. exists. The burden of proof is always on those who make a claim. Ron <It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.>
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
There IS no "how it works." "Burden of proof" is a legal concept. Nobody has the burden of proof in a casual discussion.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Certainly one making a claim should be expected to back up that claim. I believe that is Ron's point.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 15, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote: Burden of proof has a legal definition - that's true - but it also has a philosophical/scientific definition, which is the context here. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 15, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote: Thanks Danny. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Why? If I try something and it works for me. Why would I need to prove it?
I like to take people at their word, and then if I find several that say it works for them too, I at least think, maybe these people know something I don’t. To me, proof doesn’t always come in a test tube. Ron, why are so many turning to alternative treatments? Any idea? Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Of possible value. This is from a Druid magazine with worldwide circulation and has many articles about herbal remedies.
"Information contained in this magazine is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any chronic disease or emergency condition. Information, incuding recipes and remedies, is not intended as a substitute for advice from your physician or other health care professional. Please consult with your physician or health care professional before taking any medication yourself, or giving medication to your infant, child, or other member(s) of your family. Before consuming herbs and supplements, please consult with your physician or healthcare professional, and carefully read all information provided by the manufacturer, including the label of any homeopathic remedy."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote: Tom, Well, if something "works for you", then you did prove it, right? That being said, the effect that you'll get with alternative treatments is the placebo effect, and no more. And for some things, that may even be OK. But be wary of the claims made by alternative practitioners, as they often stretch credulity. Moreover, the core claims made by these practices (chi, chakras, etc.), have yet to meet their burden of proof. Doesn't that make you suspicious? Doesn't the lack of evidence of the very thing that alternative practitioners claim to be manipulating call in to question their entire healing process? And as Richard Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." I don't know that it's true that "so many turning to alternative treatments". I believe that it's more the case that so many are turning to conventional treatments. For, what, 10 thousand years of human civilization, people had NO concept of the germ theory of disease, or an understanding of cell structure or biology. For most of human history, many people thought illness was simply a punishment by the gods. And for almost ALL of that time, human lifespan was pretty much around 40 years. And the concept of vitalism (the same idea of a "mysterious animating life force" that today's alternative practitioners invoke) was the only game in town. But for the past 100+ years or so, vitalism has largely been discarded, and it has been replaced by our modern understanding of chemical/biological processes. So I think that about 150 years of modern medicine has done pretty well, given that it's competing against thousands of years of myth and superstition. That being said, many people still need to be educated about the scientific method, don't you agree? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
"the effect that you'll get with alternative treatments is the placebo effect, and no more."
now there is an opinion offered as a prima facia statment that definately demands proof. and, as you have offered this as a universal statment, it required only one example of an alterantive treatment that was not a placebo to destory your entire argument. For example, when a drug is being tested in a clinical trial it is not approved -- therefore it is an "alternative treatement" to traditonal practice at that time. By your statment any result discovered in only a placebo effect. I recognize that you are attempting to assualt "chi, chnaka, etc." but those are but a small part of "alternative treatments." It is nive that you feel both the power and need to toss out ALL alternative treatments just because you don't feel "Chi" has been proved. How many herbal treatments and "old wives' tales" have become traditional medicine that you now say were only placebo effects? I had thought there was some merit to some ideas you presented earlier. Now I must toss out ALL of your ideas because they are tainted by this rediculous statement.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Why do everyone's statements demand proof except for yours?
If statements are thrown out for prior ridiculous statements them you disqualified yourself from being taken seriously a long time ago.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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